porcupine
Posts 97
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5/7/2007 5:07 PM
posted awhile ago
FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
The concept here is pretty simple. We do a weekly podcast called FilmCouch where we tell you what we think, now it's your turn to chime in. Did we fail to mention a classic, goof up a reference, or just state an opinion that you disagree with? Bring it up here. Or if you just want to shower us with praise, that's ok, too. So, FilmCouch 18 was about bad guys. What makes them so mean, anyway? If you're behind on your listening, here's a link: FilmCouch 18 on SpoutBlog Well, what do you think it takes to make an effective villain?
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mattypro
Posts 34
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5/7/2007 6:20 PM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
Kev and Paul, I really resonated with a lot of what you said in your latest FilmCouch. I really enjoy hearing the two of you and your guests talk. As you mentioned, Darth Vader is one of the best villians that I have ever seen. And although you guys mentioned him in conjunction with specifically The Empire Strikes Back, I think that one of the things that I liked about him as a villian was the end of the third movie. He is the embodiment of evil in many ways. He wears all black, has a cape and speaks with a deviously low voice and the mechanized parts of his body are distinctively "inhuman." I was thinking about what makes him so scarey...and it isn't that he just kills people, lots of villians do that. No, I think it has a lot to do with how he slowly CHOKES THEM TO DEATH....sheesh. Bad. Ness.
But really, what makes him SUCH a good bad guy....is how human he actually turns out to be. And how he saves his son from death...not just saves him, DIES for him. That is amazing. And really...Christlike. And whether you believe in Christ or not, dieing for another is certainly a noble and loving thing to do. Which is a frightening thing to say...that a bad guy can end up being like the best guy.
You guys also talked about the bad guy that you sorta root for anyway. Tony Soprano, Tony Montana....Micheal "Tony" Corleone. And you mentioned that these are BAD people...but you still root for them...but it is important to recognize that they are BAD. This made me think of an even more subtle bad guy. Lester Burnahm....Kevin Spacey's character from American Beauty. I really think that he should be considered a bad guy. A marvelously like-able bad guy, but a bad guy none the less. And I think that because he is a bad guy...that is why the movie is sooo good.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for now. If you are looking for a soundtrack for this sort of thing, I think that Sufjan Steven's John Wayne Gacy, Jr. is a pretty good song to start with. He sorta makes you love that mass murdering psycopath....cause he is just like you.
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Puhnner
Posts 239
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5/8/2007 8:38 AM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
mattypro...would you develop the Lester Burnahm...Kevin Spacey as bad guy concept a little further, because I see him in a rather different light. I am interested in your thoughts on him and why he qualifies for the villainy tag ( I am not disagreeing by any means, just terribly interested...).
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porcupine
Posts 97
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5/8/2007 11:59 AM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
Lester Burnahm is an interesting call, I too would like to hear more. One that we didn't mention in the episode but I still think is great is Bill from Kill Bill. David Carradine exudes campy villain credibility because of his impressive b-movie filmography, but he also works as a no-joke, A-List baddy in those movies. That twist of humanity at the end is again key, with the way he interacts with their daughter.
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Puhnner
Posts 239
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5/8/2007 1:03 PM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
Good, great choice there with Bill. We need to add John Huston's Noah Cross from Chinatown to the group, he has a list of villainy and disgusting attributes which rank him highly on any list I would care to draw up. 
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Risselada
Posts 2068
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5/8/2007 3:06 PM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
 Puhnner: Good, great choice there with Bill. We need to add John Huston's Noah Cross from Chinatown to the group, he has a list of villainy and disgusting attributes which rank him highly on any list I would care to draw up.
Wow great metion! Just seeing him in that picture as his character is giving me the creeps. I've rarely been more frustrated and furious with a character! I just thought of another one who comes close though. Percy Wetmore from The Green Mile. 
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Puhnner
Posts 239
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5/8/2007 3:41 PM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
That one is perfect!!! The guy has given me the creeps since I first saw him on an X Files episode as the 'elongating man..or whoever he was supposed to be. This fellow, in this role, dare I say so, is a coward of the first order, and I am not sure if I am prepared to call all villains cowards...maybe another topic altogether. 'Villains, are they cowards or not???'
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Puhnner
Posts 239
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5/8/2007 3:44 PM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
This really put Noah into perspective for me: Noah Cross: See, Mr. Gitts, most people never have to face the fact that, at the right time and the right place, they're capable of... anything! this should have been the postscript. ps: and Mr. Gitts, I am!!! ha!
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Risselada
Posts 2068
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5/8/2007 5:44 PM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
Puhnner: That one is perfect!!! The guy has given me the creeps since I first saw him on an X Files episode as the 'elongating man..or whoever he was supposed to be. This fellow, in this role, dare I say so, is a coward of the first order, and I am not sure if I am prepared to call all villains cowards...maybe another topic altogether. 'Villains, are they cowards or not???'
Don't forget this coward from that movie's companion piece as well. 
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mattypro
Posts 34
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5/8/2007 6:28 PM
posted awhile ago
Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?
Hmmm... I guess I will put it like this: Lester Burnahm has a mid-life crisis. He is mired in a deep depression and finds that along the way, he has floated far from the familiar dock of family life. This is a terrifying realization for him, but freeing at the same time. But, instead of trying to make things "better," he decides to stick it out in the mud. And sure, this is very gratifying for a while. It can be "rewarding" to be extremely self-indulgent, to stop caring about those around you. But it is also very selfish. Perhaps there are moral limits to this that need to be observed. And I definitely think that Kevin Spacey's character crosses those limits. Now, I dont want to get into an argument about recreational drug usage or whether its ok to splurge on a sweet red Camaro and attempt to re-live the "glory days." But I think there is a certain evil that resides in the heart of a middle aged man that makes a conscious decision to seduce and sleep with a 15 year old girl. There are some major moral pitfalls evident in a human's life when that person encourages recreational drug use with a young and obviously troubled boy. Sure...SURE! I find it hard not to root for him. I find it VERY difficult not to say, TO HELL with all those moral convictions and the code of conduct that you "should" be living by as a parent of a young and troubled daughter. And I HATE the way his wife attempts to emasculate him and how obsessive she is about winning winning winning. BUT, those things do NOT make it any less true that Lester Burnahm is becoming a dead beat dad; a druggie, and a child molester. These things are bad. And by doing them...he becomes the "bad guy." Now, here is the problem...the same problem presented for me by Darth Vader. And really, that is what I think this whole "bad guy" discussion is all about for me. I think there are really great bad guys that are obviously Bad People. The ones that make you just BURN with anger and really get into your mind with thier wickedness like the above mentioned Percy Wetmore. But in the end, these aren't the "bad guys" that really move me. I don't have the itch to torture people or act with wicked abandon and malice. However, I DO see a little of Lester in my own soul. I too can feel the call of young women and drugs and a life of carelessness. So...this begs the question: how much of a bad guy am I? And, maybe more importatnly, what am I going to do about it? I hope this clarifies my ideas for you. I would love to hear what you think.
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