The Film Library

Iron Man

I know, I'm a bit late on this one, seeing as how the movie's been out for a few weeks now. But I loved it, and would love to hear your guys' reactions.

I'm not the hugest Iron Man fan in the comics, although I did have a brief period of fandom when Warren Ellis rebooted the series(not the continuity, just the title) with his super awesome Extremis storyline, and then I continued for awhile when Daniel Knauff(creator of the vastly underappreciated Carnivale for HBO) took over the reigns. And then I dropped out again around Civil War, although to be fair to the character, it was mainly Marvel that I was getting sick of around that time.

So, as a casual fan, I'd like to hear what anyone more familiar with the character has to say. I have to say that Robert Downey Jr. was so perfect, I had actually hoped for him before it was announced he was cast. In fact, the entire cast was excellent, and Jeff Bridges is always fun to watch.

Re:Iron Man

I thought Iron Man was pretty fun, although not as spectacular as I'd been hearing.  Then again, I am not as naturally gaga about superhero movies as most people seem to be these days.

I think one of the most ridiculous things about the movie were the middle-eastern villians.  Basically all we know about them is that they are middle-eastern, they "want power," and they like to go into villages and separate parents from their children.  There's not really anything else explained about them, but I guess we aren't supposed to wonder who they really are or what they want because it's obvious they are bad people from a bad part of the world.  (Maybe it's explained more in the comic books, I don't know, but certainly not in the movie).  Then when Tony finds out his weapons are getting into the hands of the "bad" guys, that's when he decides that weapons are bad.  Of course if we could find a way to keep the weapons in the posession of the "good" guys, the USA so we could keep killing the "bad" guys, that would be fine.  In fact Tony ends up just building a new weapon to do just that, his Iron Man suit.  Now although the movie gets to proclaim on the surface that it's main message is that weapons and violence are not the answer, the movie is inherently about glorifying violence.  That's what people all came to see this movie for right?  To see Iron Man murder some "bad" guys in his awesome murder suit!

Re:Iron Man

Re:Iron Man

Risselada:

 

That's what people all came to see this movie for right?  To see Iron Man murder some "bad" guys in his awesome murder suit!

His awesome murder suit? And you say you liked the film? It doesn't really sound like it.

But you bring up a good point, however almost all action/war movies do that. Platoon, Saving Private Ryan, Apocalypse Now. All of these movies have the message that, basically, war is no good. And yet they're centered around bombastic action scenes. Think about that as the 'spoonful of sugar'. In a hollywood action film they get across messages and ideas that wouldn't have reached such a wide audience otherwise. Like in Iron Man. You can say that it was all about him killing a bunch of bad people from a bad part of the world, or you can choose to view the real villian of the movie as big business and the military complex.

And Iron Man, who starts out as an oblivious playboy making money off of weapons, and he only has a change of heart when the violence hits home. You can criticise that and say that doesn't make him a hero, but it is realistically human. And in the end the middle easterns were kinda a mcguffin, a source for his moral change of heart, and the actual villain was Stane, who wanted to keep arming both sides and making money off of all of them.

And as a comic fan, I have to say that no, people didn't just go see the movie for Iron Man's murder suit. Why did you go? I think it's a bit unfair to comic book fans to boil it down to that. Some people actually do like the comics for the character development(which is slow, but there) and storylines. Like soap operas.

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TheWorkingDead:

His awesome murder suit? And you say you liked the film? It doesn't really sound like it.

I didn't like it.  Maybe I didn't LOVE it, but it was worth seeing.  When speaking about a movie I'm usually aware of whether I seemed to like a movie more or less than the general public.  If I liked it more, I will probably be talking about more of the good things.  If I liked it less, I'll probably point out more things I didn't like.  So even though I liked it, I don't think it was as good as the general hype.

TheWorkingDead:

But you bring up a good point, however almost all action/war movies do that. Platoon, Saving Private Ryan, Apocalypse Now. All of these movies have the message that, basically, war is no good. And yet they're centered around bombastic action scenes. Think about that as the 'spoonful of sugar'. In a hollywood action film they get across messages and ideas that wouldn't have reached such a wide audience otherwise. Like in Iron Man. You can say that it was all about him killing a bunch of bad people from a bad part of the world, or you can choose to view the real villian of the movie as big business and the military complex.

All of those movies you named are totally different.  They are strict war films.  They are all about real life actual wars.  Most people who know history already know who were on both sides and supposedly what they were fighting for.  Also almost all of the scenes take place in the battlefield.  And they are all pretty gruesome.  They show the real effects of violence and it isn't pretty.

Iron Man is not based on any real life events that I'm aware of.  Again I'm not sure who the Arab villains are.  If they are supposed to represent a real life organization, it isn't specified.  But by NOT specifying it seems to take for granted that all Americans will just accept the fact that because they are Arab they are probably bad.  That's what I felt the movie was saying to me at least.  And also you don't see any real effects of violence.  When people are shot or attacked there is no blood.  They usually just fly through the air like a cartoon.  The only guy who actually bleeds is Stark himself but he is saved by some made up device to put into his chest.  He even crashes into the ground at outrageous speeds and doesn't receive a scratch.  It's total fantasy.

And Iron Man, who starts out as an oblivious playboy making money off of weapons, and he only has a change of heart when the violence hits home. You can criticise that and say that doesn't make him a hero, but it is realistically human. And in the end the middle easterns were kinda a mcguffin, a source for his moral change of heart, and the actual villain was Stane, who wanted to keep arming both sides and making money off of all of them.

TheWorkingDead:

And as a comic fan, I have to say that no, people didn't just go see the movie for Iron Man's murder suit. Why did you go? I think it's a bit unfair to comic book fans to boil it down to that. Some people actually do like the comics for the character development(which is slow, but there) and storylines. Like soap operas.

Well I'm not really a comic fan.  Not that I couldn't like comics, but most of the conventions of the superhero stories just don't appeal to me.  I actually wouldn't have chosen to see this movie.  My girlfriend asked me to go with her and her friends.  Again I had a fun time with a lot of it, but it's hard for me to turn my brain off about some of these things.

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Risselada:

Well I'm not really a comic fan.  Not that I couldn't like comics, but most of the conventions of the superhero stories just don't appeal to me.  I actually wouldn't have chosen to see this movie.  My girlfriend asked me to go with her and her friends.  Again I had a fun time with a lot of it, but it's hard for me to turn my brain off about some of these things.

I'm sorry, you probably didn't mean to be insulting, but I find that last bit to be more than a little condescending. Are you saying that people have to be braindead to fully enjoy this movie? Are you saying that I, who loved the film, must not be using all of my brain cells? I think you're underestimating the audience and the filmmakers.

You like horror, right? Even though every horror movie is going to have that shot where you see a person in front of the screen and a big empty space over their shoulder. Or the shot with the hand slowly reaching for a door. Or the moment when all of the sound starts building and then cuts out a few moments before the REAL scare. Those are all trappings of the horror genre, and yet it's still possible for a movie with those trappings to be excellent.

The same goes for comic book movies. You don't like comics and superheroes so it's doubtful you're ever going to REALLY appreciate any of these films unless you have a change of heart. But the point is; look beyond those trappins, the cartoony, non realistic violence, the caricature villians(remember when they used to be russian? or german? now their middle eastern. these things change, it's ugly but true, and a reflection of our times), and see what else is being done.

And I'll still argue that the true villain of the movie is Stane, and big business, and the military war machine. The big fight at the end was between a man who is, in his own little, human and selfish way trying to help the world, and a man who is trying to make money off of the suffering going on in the middle east.

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TheWorkingDead:

Risselada:

Well I'm not really a comic fan.  Not that I couldn't like comics, but most of the conventions of the superhero stories just don't appeal to me.  I actually wouldn't have chosen to see this movie.  My girlfriend asked me to go with her and her friends.  Again I had a fun time with a lot of it, but it's hard for me to turn my brain off about some of these things.

I'm sorry, you probably didn't mean to be insulting, but I find that last bit to be more than a little condescending. Are you saying that people have to be braindead to fully enjoy this movie? Are you saying that I, who loved the film, must not be using all of my brain cells? I think you're underestimating the audience and the filmmakers.

Well what I said was that it's hard for ME to turn my brain off for these movies.  And that's what I would have to do to ignore these things that bother me.  I'm not really saying that anyone who loves these kinds of movies is braindead.  It's just apparent that many people have brains who work differently.  So their brains may be on, but these things just don't bother them.  But for me to ignore them, I do feel like I have to shut off part of my brain.  Maybe that still is a little condescending of me to say.  But that is how I feel.  I don't know what you mean when you say I'm underestimating the audience and filmmakers.  In what regards am I underestimating them?  I watched the movie and these are the things that bugged me.  What else is there in store from them besides watching their movie that I could be estimating?

TheWorkingDead:

You like horror, right? Even though every horror movie is going to have that shot where you see a person in front of the screen and a big empty space over their shoulder. Or the shot with the hand slowly reaching for a door. Or the moment when all of the sound starts building and then cuts out a few moments before the REAL scare. Those are all trappings of the horror genre, and yet it's still possible for a movie with those trappings to be excellent.

The same goes for comic book movies. You don't like comics and superheroes so it's doubtful you're ever going to REALLY appreciate any of these films unless you have a change of heart. But the point is; look beyond those trappins, the cartoony, non realistic violence, the caricature villians(remember when they used to be russian? or german? now their middle eastern. these things change, it's ugly but true, and a reflection of our times), and see what else is being done.

Heh.  Well, to answer the first question of that section.  No I don't really like horror either.  I mean I can enjoy both super hero movies and horror movies to some extent, but maybe it is those trappings that you identified are a part of both genres that keep me from loving them.  So unfortunately by your assumption that I like horror movies you really only reinforced the reasons why both of the genres rarely achieve greatness for me.  I guess it's just something about the basic assumptions of the genres.

TheWorkingDead:

And I'll still argue that the true villain of the movie is Stane, and big business, and the military war machine. The big fight at the end was between a man who is, in his own little, human and selfish way trying to help the world, and a man who is trying to make money off of the suffering going on in the middle east.

That may very well be.  But you never actually discounted any of the specific things I said irked me.  You just are telling me to look beyond them as they are trappings.  Well that's hard for me to do.

And you know I love ya Aaron.  I like having conversations like this where we can get down to these things.  Because I like discussing it.  Just didn't want you to feel discouraged.  :)

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Don't worry, I'm not discouraged. I actually really enjoy heated discussions, and as much as the egotist in me wants everyone to think my opinions are genius, I think that would be really boring.

To reiterate; I am completely grateful that youre in this group and are participating as much as you are. I don't think I could do it without your posts.

Now that the mutual love is out of the way:

When I said you were underestimating the audience and the filmmakers, it's because you said you liked the movie, but implied everyone else went to it for the sole purpose of watching Iron Man kill people, and that other people(or at least the majority of them) ignored the sociological faults with the film that you found. Or even worse, maybe they went to the film FOR those reasons. I'm trying to say that a lot of people are probably smart enough to see those issues and make their own arguments either for or against them.

I don't know if I'm stating that correctly. But I think I can understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree that that was the intention. I chose to look at what the filmmakers DID intend, and judged it based on that.

Here's a possibly more apt description of my feelings; we all know that summer blockbusters are going to feature big explosions and action that defies the realm of possibility. What's important is to see what the filmmakers were able to sneak into that template. You have, in a summer action blockbuster, an anti-military undercurrent. You don't get that in, say ID4(I know, outdated) or Transformers.

Plus, I like comic books and superheroes. Which would explain why I loved this film.

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Iron Man isn't a comic I pick up, but I do read it every now and then. I would go buy the Iron Man: Extremis graphic novel(or download it, or check it out from the library). It's a really awesome storyline that recaps a bit of his origin while also laying the template for the current way Iron Man is portrayed in comics. It's all types of awesome.

I actually think that the comic movies will avoid the continuity heavy stuff, knowing that the average fan will be someone not reading the comics for the past 30 years. That's also probably why they're doing all the individual characters movies first(aside from Capt. America), so that general audiences will be primed for a movie featuring this established super team(on a related note, Ant-Man directed by Edgar Wright will be so damned awesome).

I, like you, am a DC person, although lately you need a PhD in comic book history to understand the current stories. I had a real big change of heart about Superman a few years back, and really loved the movie, but I find it's hard to convince people of why.

I actually think that the comic movies will avid

Re:Iron Man

TheWorkingDead:

Here's a possibly more apt description of my feelings; we all know that summer blockbusters are going to feature big explosions and action that defies the realm of possibility. What's important is to see what the filmmakers were able to sneak into that template. You have, in a summer action blockbuster, an anti-military undercurrent. You don't get that in, say ID4(I know, outdated) or Transformers.

I guess I just have an immediate aversion to movies where I know they had to "sneak" stuff in.  That means there's not even a consensus among the filmmakers on what the film is supposed to be.

And I am saying the anti-military undercurrent for me is voided by the fact that there is still all kinds of violence in the movie with no real exploration of the repurcussions of violence.  And actually I think this explicit anti-military message even make the implicit prov violence that is in the film even worse by somehow trying to justify it in a false context.

And also I don't think "anti-military" is the right word for the message.  Because Tony Stark is not against OUR military using his weapons.  He's just worried that his weapons will get into the hands of the "bad guys" military.  He had no qualms about the fact that the USA was using his weapons to blow up the "bad guys".  It was only after he realized that the "bad guys" could get ahold of his weapons and use them against the "good guys" that he wanted to stop making weapons.