Top 5

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Pepper-Ann — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:21:18 GMT

1. 2001: A Space Odyssey- I'm surprised not to see this one on more lists. I've had several film classes and every single teacher has showed this film. Every one. Now, I'm not a sci-fi fan. So I'm already at a loss. But I just didn't think this was one of the best movies. Yeah, the special effects were great for it's time and it's good as an art film. But it just didn't grab me. One of the things I like in my films, serious ones anyways, is to have some sort of connection with the characters. Whether I hate them or love them, and I just didn't give a crap about Dave. The scenes were too drawn out and there wasn't enough plot for me to pay attention to. Or at least it went over my head all 8 times I've watched it. Again, I love Kubrick. I just couldn't get into this movie.

2. Titanic- Oh boy, not only did this movie make the Celine Dion song that I still hear to this day popular, but it's also the reason people still say "I'M KING OF THE WORLD!" Now, the Titanic is actually a pretty good setting for an emotional movie. But to me, the whole thing played out as Romeo and Juliet on a sinking ship. And boy, was it ever long! Again, romance movies aren't my cup of tea either, so I might be a bit harsh. It won way too many Oscars, and there were some pretty good movies up for best picture that year. Then again, I've always felt the Oscars were a little one-sided.

3. Blair Witch Project- I think a lot of people realized that after it came out though. Maybe "over-hyped" is the word I need to be using for this one and not so much over-rated.

4. No Country for Old Men- Don't hit me. See, that's the sign that a movie is over-rated.That knee-jerk response. Because yeah, I've been attacked for my opinion on this one, and I know I'm going to be the only one here that says it, especially as a film fan. But I still stand strong. I totally understand where the Coens were going, and I liked that they showed another side of things but the ending? Oh man did that ending ever make me mad. And apparently some other guy in the theater who felt like standing up and shouting "The Coen Brothers are a**holes!" Javier's performance was stellar. I wish I could elaborate more about why I feel this, but to be honest, I barely remember most of it except the coin flipping. That's how much I liked it.

5. Shawshank Redemption- If we're going to praise movies based on Stephen King stories, I think that should go to The Green Mile. Either that or Stand By Me which I think is one of the most emotional movies of all time. Fantastic coming of age story and great performances by all the young boys. Before Corey Feldman let everything go to his head and got out of control. And one of my favorite movies ever. Or The Shining, but I think that gets more than enough credit. I didn't see anything in Shawshank Redemption that really stood out to me. And yes, I've read the short story too. Before I saw the movie.

And see, everyone saying they don't like Goodfellas, I love movies about the mafia. I don't know why, but I've always been drawn to them. Even the really crappy ones. I like Scorsese movies too.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

seely — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:09:59 GMT

Bailey, I'm going to have to go ahead and gree with you on both of those! Goodfellas was a *good* movie, but not *great*. Same can be said for Shakespeare in Love. It was visually pleasant, but really, once again, there wasn't much substance below a glossy exterior.

bailey822:

I agree completely about Goodfellas. I love Scorsese, but this was no Godfather. Shakespeare in Love was another one that didn't exactly deserve all that critical acclaim...it was basically a romantic comedy with lots of expensive costumes.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

bailey822 — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 02:52:49 GMT

I agree completely about Goodfellas. I love Scorsese, but this was no Godfather. Shakespeare in Love was another one that didn't exactly deserve all that critical acclaim...it was basically a romantic comedy with lots of expensive costumes.

leeroy711:

SkyPilot:

3. Amelie

Boooooooooo!!!

I love this one and everything else by Juenet. The rest of the list I can't disagree with but mine would look more like:

1. Platoon - Hamburger Hill was better........... trust me.

2. Goodfellas/Casino/Taxi Driver - I didn't really get into a Scorsese film until The Departed. These others were OK, but that's about it. If it weren't for Oliver Stone, Martin Scorsese would be the most overrated director.

3. Shakespeare In Love - this was when I stopped watching or caring about the Oscars

4. Gladiator - see No. 3 - And I actually liked Black Hawk Down better for a Ridley Scott film.

5. Shawshank Redemption - This one was clever but c'mon. No. 1 on IMDB's top 250 list is just ridiculous.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

seely — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:14:38 GMT

Thank you! It was something I've been needing to get off my chest!!

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:14:11 GMT

seely:

While I'm venting, I'm going to add one more to my list of Overrated Films.

The Dark Knight

A very good film, but nothing more. The dialogue was pallid at best, Heath Ledger's performance completely outshone Christian Bale's, and the plot was disjointed and hectic, which I suppose didn't leave the audience much time to ponder some of the gaping plot holes. I know everyone loved this film, but I was actually applauding the academy for snubbing this one on "Best Picture". It was good for a comic book film, but it was still just that--a comic book film.

AGREED

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

seely — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:36:11 GMT

While I'm venting, I'm going to add one more to my list of Overrated Films.

The Dark Knight

A very good film, but nothing more. The dialogue was pallid at best, Heath Ledger's performance completely outshone Christian Bale's, and the plot was disjointed and hectic, which I suppose didn't leave the audience much time to ponder some of the gaping plot holes. I know everyone loved this film, but I was actually applauding the academy for snubbing this one on "Best Picture". It was good for a comic book film, but it was still just that--a comic book film.

seely:

In Bruges

I was told that I *need* to see this film because of its sheer brilliance, but I can't see any brilliance whatsoever. Colin Farrell had his funny moments, but I found the rest of the film disjointed, filled with gaping plot holes (theres a dead guy laying disembowled in the square, guys shooting back and forth forever in a long foot chase... and no cops... really?), and it seemed the imagery was all supposed to be 'deeper' and 'more meaningful' that it actually was. I found the movie trite, pandering and trying to construct a false pretentiousness it couldn't live up to with its shallow plot.

I feel much better now.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

seely — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:56:33 GMT

In Bruges

I was told that I *need* to see this film because of its sheer brilliance, but I can't see any brilliance whatsoever. Colin Farrell had his funny moments, but I found the rest of the film disjointed, filled with gaping plot holes (theres a dead guy laying disembowled in the square, guys shooting back and forth forever in a long foot chase... and no cops... really?), and it seemed the imagery was all supposed to be 'deeper' and 'more meaningful' that it actually was. I found the movie trite, pandering and trying to construct a false pretentiousness it couldn't live up to with its shallow plot.

I feel much better now.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:02:18 GMT

flair:

On the other hand, who would have guessed that Ken Russell would turn out to be the best interpreter of late-career Chayefsky?

I assume you are speaking of Altered States, which I haven't seen either, but have been wanting to see for a log longer and probably a lot more. I need to get to that one soon!

Thanks for your response. You sure pure a lot of time and thought into these posts, not to mention that you clearly are quite knowledgable. It's good to have you joining us here!

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

flair — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:47:15 GMT

pippin06:

It's fun to read over threads sometimes. Geez, I talk a lot.

Anyway, flair, your disdain for Scorsese aside (because I was generally feeling non-love for the oh so insane one, but correct me if I'm wrong), I liked this choice (Closer). I know a lot of people who like this movie, and I just could not get into it, for the same reasons (though, I doubt I put them so eloquently).

And I've never heard of The Hospital. Not that I'm any benchmark, but has anyone else heard of it (save for Rizzo) and thinks it's overrated? I think if something is going to be overrated, it has to be, you know, not obscure, so I'm trying to find out if it's really that obscure or not.

and Risselada wrote:

After watching Network recently and watching all of the DVD features I learned about Paddy Chayefsky and The Hospital was mentioned a few times. I'm wondering if you share similar sentiments about the Network script.

Taking these in sequence:

1) Yes, Pippin, I was prescient enough not to expect a Christmas card from the Scorsese family, which cushioned my disappointment. I very much enjoyed Taxi Driver, particularly the acting. I didn't anticipate he would go on to make the same movie over and over.

George C. Scott missed many of his calls for The Hospital, because his process at the time consisted of going on a bender, taking two days off for a little acting, then resuming the bender. Despite this, he was nominated for an Oscar, BAFTA and, not that it counts, Golden Globe. Paddy Chayefsky's script won all three, over Klute, proving once again that when humans get involved, there's no justice. (Or is that a line from Closer? I too have a friend who raves about that movie; the human mind is a mysterious organ.)

Of course, if you conclude that this movie is now too obscure to be overrated, so much the better.

2) Risselada, you may be trying to goad me into launching a batty uncle theme page, but I have a soft spot in my head for Network, which was the essentially the end of a process that began with the rough draft version, i.e., The Hospital. To my mind, the principal difference is that Howard Beale comes across as a decent man, confused about where the culture is going and where he's ended up, but not a smug bully, contagious with white elitist bile, like Dr. Herbert Bock. Part of that's due to Peter Finch and Sidney Lumet, a committed star and better director, but Chayefsky also deserves credit for developing his characters and concepts.

That doesn't save Faye Dunaway from serving as the same piñata for misogyny that Diana Rigg played in The Hospital. (Beatrice Straight's Oscar was a sort of joke; her part is tiny but in this context it's so unexpected to hear a woman given dialogue that rings true, it seems like a revelation.) But even Dunaway illustrates another important difference between the two movies. In the main, Network's supporting actors are much more on their game and in tune with their characters, and endeavour to make them something other than stereotypes.

Even in the 1970s, the decline of American television news, and much of American journalism, already was a truism. The credit Chayefsky now gets for being ahead of his time instead of merely reflecting it is a bit anachronistic. (Although things have gotten marginally worse. Lara Logan's recent comment that she'd blow her brains out if she had to make do with American news demonstrates that even a home-wrecking, South African ex-model has a firmer grasp on reality than, just for example, Sean Hannity.)

But I digress. What Paddy does deserve top marks for is his excellent job of absorbing the zeitgeist. This script put many people's fears and criticisms into pointed sloganeering. Finch took it from there. Although Beale's speeches go on as long or longer than Dr. Bock's, they come across as delirious social commentary, over-the-top truth-telling, not just personal gripes.

On the other hand, who would have guessed that Ken Russell would turn out to be the best interpreter of late-career Chayefsky?

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

pippin06 — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:08:58 GMT

flair:

5) Closer

Certain productions work acceptably on stage, where the immediacy of the acting and the intimacy of the setting can overcome contrived writing. With the right cast, "Closer" makes for an interesting if chilly theatrical experience. Blown up on screen, with little effort to expand the stagey settings and set-up, every bit of plot machinery and line of by-the-numbers dialogue gets cruelly exposed. The high-profile cast is not exactly bad, but strikes few sparks. In a sexual rondelet of two couples, it doesn't help that Natalie Portman exudes all the allure of an average 12-year-old playing dress up, while Jude Law opts to push his boyishness to new extremes.

It's fun to read over threads sometimes. Geez, I talk a lot.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:01:45 GMT

flair:

3) The Hospital (1971)

I'm not sure this movie is still well-known enough to be truly overrated, but at the time this shrill, misogynistic, self-satisfied and self-defeating satire actually attracted some good notices. The combination of bombastic screenwriter Paddy Chayefsky, pedestrian director Arthur Hiller and george C. Scott in real social realist mode as the bitter alcoholic he was born to be, er, play, trample whatever green shoots of antic comedy that attempt to poke up their heads. Diana Rigg, an actress I usually like, gives the worst performance of her career simply by playing her ludicrous character, The Girl, straight.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

flair — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:35:16 GMT

1) Gangs of New York (2002)

As Pippin points out, in the land of overrated Scorsese, there are plenty of choices. But this represents the apogee: a meticulously researched, carefully staged, beautifully filmed, soulless, empty-headed, costume drama variation on all his other celebrations of violence. No matter how compelling the characters and intriguing their stories, Scorsese always manages to miss their heart. That's forgivable in rubbish like "Goodfellas" or a cartoon like "The Departed," where we know he's just filling time between spasms of bloodshed. But consider the resources that went into recreating this vanished world, only for Marty to once again fail at Storytelling 101. In an earlier era, Scorsese would be the batty uncle in the attic. Today, he's an award-winning director. Who says there's been no progress in the treatment of the mentally ill?

2) In the Bedroom (2001)

Anyone who has ever lost a family member through crime, and struggled through the resulting legal proceedings, understands the continued heartbreak and frustration involved, and the amount of forbearance and character required to get through the days. For the sake of a cheap twist, this disgraceful twaddle dishonors all those sacrifices.

3) The Hospital (1971)

I'm not sure this movie is still well-known enough to be truly overrated, but at the time this shrill, misogynistic, self-satisfied and self-defeating satire actually attracted some good notices. The combination of bombastic screenwriter Paddy Chayefsky, pedestrian director Arthur Hiller and george C. Scott in real social realist mode as the bitter alcoholic he was born to be, er, play, trample whatever green shoots of antic comedy that attempt to poke up their heads. Diana Rigg, an actress I usually like, gives the worst performance of her career simply by playing her ludicrous character, The Girl, straight.

4) Stage Beauty (2004)

I understand the criticism of "Shakespeare in Love," but that's "Battleship Potemkin" compared to this pale copy. Not only do Claire Danes and Billy Crudup make Gwynneth Paltrow and Joseph Fiennes look like Brangelina, this movie actually borrows the silliest storyline element from "Goldfinger." No, not the attack on Fort Knox, the part where one fling with Sean Connery cures Honor Blackman of her lesbian proclivities. Here, it's boyish Claire who supposedly entices Billy away from the boys; perhaps he just didn't notice a difference. ZZZZZZ. (Billy lost even more cred off-screen by leaving pregnant girlfriend Mary Louise Parker for Claire. No, truly, I'm not making that up. Talk about sexual confusion. Fittingly, Claire then left Billy for an avowedly gay actor.)

5) Closer

Certain productions work acceptably on stage, where the immediacy of the acting and the intimacy of the setting can overcome contrived writing. With the right cast, "Closer" makes for an interesting if chilly theatrical experience. Blown up on screen, with little effort to expand the stagey settings and set-up, every bit of plot machinery and line of by-the-numbers dialogue gets cruelly exposed. The high-profile cast is not exactly bad, but strikes few sparks. In a sexual rondelet of two couples, it doesn't help that Natalie Portman exudes all the allure of an average 12-year-old playing dress up, while Jude Law opts to push his boyishness to new extremes.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

flair — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:56:38 GMT

pippin06:

leeroy711:

SkyPilot:

3. Amelie

Boooooooooo!!!

I love this one and everything else by Juenet. The rest of the list I can't disagree with but mine would look more like:

1. Platoon - Hamburger Hill was better........... trust me.

2. Goodfellas/Casino/Taxi Driver - I didn't really get into a Scorsese film until The Departed. These others were OK, but that's about it. If it weren't for Oliver Stone, Martin Scorsese would be the most overrated director.

3. Shakespeare In Love - this was when I stopped watching or caring about the Oscars

4. Gladiator - see No. 3 - And I actually liked Black Hawk Down better for a Ridley Scott film.

5. Shawshank Redemption - This one was clever but c'mon. No. 1 on IMDB's top 250 list is just ridiculous.

leeroy, I think you are harsh on Scorsese, and he didn't only make those three flicks prior to the Departed. In the land of overrated for Scorsese, I submit Gangs of New York and The Aviator. I hate them, and they were nominated a million times for a million awards (and were some in the long line of Scorsese's no-Oscar curse).

Though, I totally agree with Gladiator (also doesn't hold up to repeat viewings) and Shakespeare in Love. I was hot when the latter won Best Picture thanks to the alpha-campaignig of the Weinsteins. Saving Private Ryan is a much better film, and I personally and generally prefer romances to war movies any day, but come on.

And now I see why Shawshank might be considered overrated Ok, I concede on that point, but I'm with leeroy on Amelie.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:41:57 GMT

rjsprague:
Subjectivity is certainly a baseline, but getting at the basis of our opinions is always good to encourage people talking to each other instead of past each other. Disagreement is guaranteed, but that doesn't mean we can't share something meaningful. At the same time if someone just says "Gladiator is totally overrated. That movie wasn't that good.", I have a hard time accepting their opinion because it seems to lack validity in view of the greater world of film.

But that's not most people on Spout, at least not most of the people who contibute regularly. Certainly not any of the people who have participated in this thread so far. Or don't you agree?

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

rjsprague — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:11:11 GMT

pippin06:

I also loved SkyPilot's post (lmao - especially about the purple part of the brain) and meant to write something earlier, but I was busy being a stage actress (cue dramatic hand on forehead), so I haven't had a good minute to respond. And because some good replies came out, I'm just going to copy and paste or respond to the poster by name rather than messing with the quote and reply function that defaults on Spout.

First, I have to ponder seely's assessment that some Americans like some films such as Amelie or Crouching Tiger just because they are foreign. It seems like this is expanding on leeroy's point a little, that Amelie is the "gateway drug" to foreign films. Maybe some Americans do profess to like Amelie or Crouching Tiger just because, especially those people wanting to bear the moniker of film "maven," like on Spout. Maybe that's the natural en masse response to the notion that Americans don't appreciate foreign films enough - it's like reverse psychology. Tell me I'm just a dumb American who can't appreciate foreign films, and I'll go find some foreign films that I like, and hey, look at me, I could be a voting member of the Academy now! Look at me, I should be in the club now because I like a French-language film (a la Amelie)! That's not providing the whole story, though, because like I said, you have to start somewhere. Crouching Tiger may (arguably) be mediocre and mass-marketed, but I'm sure some of its staunchest supporters were inspired to explore other, similar films in Chinese or other languages and go from there. That's why I hate the idea that Amelie or Crouching Tiger has to be overrated at all - maybe it didn't do what it originally intended, but it seems to have at least some cultural importance. Of course, I love both movies because they appeal to that love of fantasy that made me go start a Spout group...but see, I'm looking at it from completely different perspectives than how seely or SkyPilot approached it in this discussion.

Even still, seely's giving people more credit than I normally hear. Most times, it's said that Americans don't appreciate foreign films enough because we're all so wrapped up in our popcorn flicks and films that are deemed good only because they get Oscar noms. It's like the general moviegoing public can't win. Maybe I'm taking a more populist approach, but people have to be given a chance. It's frustrating to be told, if you've never really liked foreign films (because maybe you just don't want to read the whole time you're trying to watch the movie, and I've heard that argument big time), for example, that after giving one a chance, like Amelie or Crouching Tiger, you only picked it up because it was cool to do it, except that the particular film really doesn't really count, because it's not a really real foreign film. If you want to be cool, go pick up a Bergman or Fellini film. In other words, since leeroy used the drug analogy, what's basically being implied is that people should skip over the pot and head straight for the crack because people only smoke pot to make it seem like their badass drug users, but they're not really "down" with the whole scene. At least, that's how I'm taking this. :-)

So, rjsprague brings up a really good point. Where does overrated come from when I decide something is overrated? I mean, I am as guilty as the next person of using superlatives to make my point that a film is the greatest ever, but that's how we, as in Joe Q Filmgoer, talk, isn't it? So, isn't it the case that the more we hear the exaggerations, the more inclined we are to say, well, pfft, that film wasn't as all that and a bag of chips as so and so said...so it's overrated, natch! Or, let's say Manhola Dargis of the New York Times (a reviewer with whom I agree about 40% of the time, btw), thinks the films is beyond words great...but I don't agree. It's overrated, right?

And so, my point about the subjectivity, is how do we arrive at even professing "we know better"? As in, who is informing our opinion that it's overrated? Because overrated really depends on what weight we're giving to who is saying it's wonderful, and then you get into the problematic exercise of trying to say which is more valid. Is Imdb more valid than Rotten Tomatoes? Is The Times more valid than my crazy movie-watching friend who watches so many, he's like a card catalog of films?

So, in the end, I like the idea of being polite, as Rizzo noted, but if we are going to say something is overrated, which we know is subjective, then it's kind of impossible to approach it objectively at any point because it can never really be objective. We have to say: this is what I base my opinions on, this is what I've heard about the movie, this is who said it, this what I thought, and this is how I arrive at "overrated."

Sorry, I speechified a bit there, but I am trying to kill time at work :-).

/em stands in awe of Pippin as she draws her katana and slays time in a single motion.

Subjectivity is certainly a baseline, but getting at the basis of our opinions is always good to encourage people talking to each other instead of past each other. Disagreement is guaranteed, but that doesn't mean we can't share something meaningful. At the same time if someone just says "Gladiator is totally overrated. That movie wasn't that good.", I have a hard time accepting their opinion because it seems to lack validity in view of the greater world of film. Granted my knowledge of film is fledgling at best, but I respect a film like Gladiator because I consider it to be an artful piece of entertainment. Now I understand that it might not be as good as many other films, but certainly it is better than many other films. So if I were to say a film like Gladiator is overrated I might also finished with "compared to [insert name of better film, which isn't overrated because it is better, but less celebrated than the previously mentioned film ie Gladiator]". This would be make it clear that I was comparing two films within the vast world of film, and establishing one as overrated(imho) when compared to another (better) film, which isn't overrated (imho), but easily could become overrated if I continue to whine about it long enough and get enough people to watch it and agree how great it is... :)

This will be the longest post EVER. No really.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

pippin06 — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:01:00 GMT

Risselada:

Although I'm not really sure if I like analogizing harmful drugs with foreign films, so I'm not really sure if this means anything, but I'm sure drug users who really endorse hardcore drugs wouldn't say that you should skip the pot and head straight to crack. But they might say once you have tried the pot you shouldn't stop there and claim it's the greatest ever. You should then move on to the crack, and once you've tried the crack you will realize the pot wasn't actually the greatest.

You're right, and if that's what was implied in previous discussion posts, they're right too. And there are people who do that (with the foreign films, not the drugs...for the sake of this discussion, anyway - just say no, kids!). But I don't think the majority of people do that, and that's the implication that bothers me. It feels too much like creating a stereotype, and those don't usually work out so well, even when it comes to talking about movies. What's actually out there is a lot more gray than the black and white being suggested.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:39:19 GMT

pippin06:
In other words, since leeroy used the drug analogy, what's basically being implied is that people should skip over the pot and head straight for the crack because people only smoke pot to make it seem like their badass drug users, but they're not really "down" with the whole scene. At least, that's how I'm taking this. :-)

Although I'm not really sure if I like analogizing harmful drugs with foreign films, so I'm not really sure if this means anything, but I'm sure drug users who really endorse hardcore drugs wouldn't say that you should skip the pot and head straight to crack. But they might say once you have tried the pot you shouldn't stop there and claim it's the greatest ever. You should then move on to the crack, and once you've tried the crack you will realize the pot wasn't actually the greatest.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

pippin06 — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:49:24 GMT

I also loved SkyPilot's post (lmao - especially about the purple part of the brain) and meant to write something earlier, but I was busy being a stage actress (cue dramatic hand on forehead), so I haven't had a good minute to respond. And because some good replies came out, I'm just going to copy and paste or respond to the poster by name rather than messing with the quote and reply function that defaults on Spout.

First, I have to ponder seely's assessment that some Americans like some films such as Amelie or Crouching Tiger just because they are foreign. It seems like this is expanding on leeroy's point a little, that Amelie is the "gateway drug" to foreign films. Maybe some Americans do profess to like Amelie or Crouching Tiger just because, especially those people wanting to bear the moniker of film "maven," like on Spout. Maybe that's the natural en masse response to the notion that Americans don't appreciate foreign films enough - it's like reverse psychology. Tell me I'm just a dumb American who can't appreciate foreign films, and I'll go find some foreign films that I like, and hey, look at me, I could be a voting member of the Academy now! Look at me, I should be in the club now because I like a French-language film (a la Amelie)! That's not providing the whole story, though, because like I said, you have to start somewhere. Crouching Tiger may (arguably) be mediocre and mass-marketed, but I'm sure some of its staunchest supporters were inspired to explore other, similar films in Chinese or other languages and go from there. That's why I hate the idea that Amelie or Crouching Tiger has to be overrated at all - maybe it didn't do what it originally intended, but it seems to have at least some cultural importance. Of course, I love both movies because they appeal to that love of fantasy that made me go start a Spout group...but see, I'm looking at it from completely different perspectives than how seely or SkyPilot approached it in this discussion.

Even still, seely's giving people more credit than I normally hear. Most times, it's said that Americans don't appreciate foreign films enough because we're all so wrapped up in our popcorn flicks and films that are deemed good only because they get Oscar noms. It's like the general moviegoing public can't win. Maybe I'm taking a more populist approach, but people have to be given a chance. It's frustrating to be told, if you've never really liked foreign films (because maybe you just don't want to read the whole time you're trying to watch the movie, and I've heard that argument big time), for example, that after giving one a chance, like Amelie or Crouching Tiger, you only picked it up because it was cool to do it, except that the particular film really doesn't really count, because it's not a really real foreign film. If you want to be cool, go pick up a Bergman or Fellini film. In other words, since leeroy used the drug analogy, what's basically being implied is that people should skip over the pot and head straight for the crack because people only smoke pot to make it seem like their badass drug users, but they're not really "down" with the whole scene. At least, that's how I'm taking this. :-)

So, rjsprague brings up a really good point. Where does overrated come from when I decide something is overrated? I mean, I am as guilty as the next person of using superlatives to make my point that a film is the greatest ever, but that's how we, as in Joe Q Filmgoer, talk, isn't it? So, isn't it the case that the more we hear the exaggerations, the more inclined we are to say, well, pfft, that film wasn't as all that and a bag of chips as so and so said...so it's overrated, natch! Or, let's say Manhola Dargis of the New York Times (a reviewer with whom I agree about 40% of the time, btw), thinks the films is beyond words great...but I don't agree. It's overrated, right?

And so, my point about the subjectivity, is how do we arrive at even professing "we know better"? As in, who is informing our opinion that it's overrated? Because overrated really depends on what weight we're giving to who is saying it's wonderful, and then you get into the problematic exercise of trying to say which is more valid. Is Imdb more valid than Rotten Tomatoes? Is The Times more valid than my crazy movie-watching friend who watches so many, he's like a card catalog of films?

So, in the end, I like the idea of being polite, as Rizzo noted, but if we are going to say something is overrated, which we know is subjective, then it's kind of impossible to approach it objectively at any point because it can never really be objective. We have to say: this is what I base my opinions on, this is what I've heard about the movie, this is who said it, this what I thought, and this is how I arrive at "overrated."

Sorry, I speechified a bit there, but I am trying to kill time at work :-).

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

rjsprague — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:31:15 GMT

I've never seen Amelie, or The Usual Suspects, despite others telling me I ought to do so.

I think one of the biggest issues with laying down a claim of something being overrated is our own perception of what others think of that something.

I find that many people overstate their "love" of a certain film because they lack the desire, or knowledge, to give a more clear and compelling explanation of their approval of the film. Instead they make wide and sweeping claims like "THAT MOVE WAS THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER!" and so on, ad nauseum. With such blatantly stupid subjective ratings being thrown about like a [insert pejorative adjective + appalling noun here], it is no wonder that more sensible people will paradigmatically swing the opposite direction so as to act as a counter-balance.

The Yin to my Yang so to speak.

The real question is this: Do I feel my own love of. or rating of, a particular film is overrated because of the concensus that said film is "teh greatest eva!"

I enjoyed Shawshank Redemption, Gladiator, and Braveheart not because of the heroes being portrayed, but more with the themes of each of these films. Redemption, Vindication, Revenge, Justice, Love, Betrayal, and Justice. It's like reading the Bible, but more entertaining (is that blasphemy?). I find these themes to be personally compelling. :)

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

seely — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:48:42 GMT

I guess a lot of those are movies that didn't particularly change my life, but I'm not particularly offended by either. One thing I will say about 'Amelie' (and I agree that it is quite overrated) is that I feel foreign films often get a critical and audience nod simply because they are foreign. Its kind of like how people with an accent are inherently more attractive and interesting than your non-accented compatriots. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is a good example of this as well. Its a mediocre Asian film, but floored audiences stateside, I would argue, simply because it was foreign and different. Its a film I enjoy, but ultimately was not as amazing as it was hyped up to be, especially in the light of other great selections from Asian cinema.

SkyPilot:

1. The Shawshank Redemption

2. The Usual Suspects

3. Amelie

4. Forrest Gump

5. Braveheart

I enjoy all of these to some degree (especially Braveheart, which is deeply un-good in some ways)...but let's be honest...these aren't great films.

Who disagrees with me?

I was prompted to post this by the Most Overrated Movies group.

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

Risselada — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:30:13 GMT

Very amusing post Adam. My ego explodes with the knowledge that it has it's own huge section devoted to it in everyone's brain.

SkyPilot:
Beyond the complications caused by my own fuzzy criteria, Pippin hits on a further complication: Isn't an "Overrated!" claim a subjective judgment claiming objective status? In other words, if we say "Braveheart is overrated!" do we not claim that we "know better" than die-hard Braveheart fans? Hmm... I will have to think more. Any thoughts?

Well I think when you say something like you "know better" than others, that is descriptive of an objective judgement over a subjective judgement. I think ackowleding that your assessment of something being overrated is subjective is more like saying "I do not like Braveheart as much as the average person seems to or to such an extent that such a large number of fans do. Here are my reasons for not liking it. But the world is complicated and people have different preferences so I would not presume to say I 'know better' than you. But I'm glad we can discuss and listen to each other's reason as to why we think other people like a movie more or less than we do"

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

SkyPilot — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:43:49 GMT

Risselada:

pippin06:
1.) how one approaches or defines overrated is so different depending on different vantage points and circumstances and 2.) even if you find that common definition, it's so subjective, so it's hard to discuss. Everyone's going to see it differently...it's circular before it even gets going, I guess is what I'm saying.

Oh I dunno. We've already had a pretty lengthy discussion here about several different movies that SkyPilot proposed. And I've heard some interesting perspectives from many people on many of the movies. I don't think it's been too difficult to discuss. In fact this has been one of the more lively discussions that has been on Spout for several weeks!

EXPLORATORY DISSECTION OF THE MOVIE-LOVING BRAIN

Hey are you guys into fake biology? If not, skip to the *** below.

BLUE: Receives movie stimuli and elevates it over people stimuli. This region is responsible for selective hearing when a movie is playing.

GREEN: Assimilates and stores movie stimuli. Holds the raw material for movie lists, and is the ultimate source of movie quoting.

YELLOW: Constantly compares and judges movie stimuli. Nascent listing occurs, but only on the subconscious level.

RED: As "Fight or Flight" response is triggered, this region responds by articulating listing judgments. All other senses (especially hearing) temporarily falter. Reason crawls down a hole.

ORANGE: Responds to subliminal messages such as "Drink Coca-Cola." Also responsible for arousal to movie stars.

PURPLE: Responsible for arousal to Risselada.

_______________________

***My brain is really cookin' now. I've enjoyed this conversation a lot, and pippin's observations are spurring me to look deeper...

You guys are reminding me how easy it is to talk "at" one another, rather than talk "with" one another, especially when "we" (or "skypilot") don't examine our own criteria in making judgements.

Us trying to get on the same page of what "overrated" means reminds me of Aristotle. He would've been an interesting cat to listen to about film criticism; did you know he invented the scientific system of animal taxonomy, the system that goes "kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species"? I don't think he would've made the same mistake I did -- he wouldn't confuse two species of overrated films. As I've tried to explain above, I think Amelie is overrated in a different way than The Shawshank Redemption is overrated.

Beyond the complications caused by my own fuzzy criteria, Pippin hits on a further complication: Isn't an "Overrated!" claim a subjective judgment claiming objective status? In other words, if we say "Braveheart is overrated!" do we not claim that we "know better" than die-hard Braveheart fans? Hmm... I will have to think more. Any thoughts?

I think I'm really interested whenever tons of people love a movie. That seems significant.

I have to go play Dungeons & Dragons. Talk to you later!

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

Risselada — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:27:50 GMT

pippin06:
1.) how one approaches or defines overrated is so different depending on different vantage points and circumstances and 2.) even if you find that common definition, it's so subjective, so it's hard to discuss. Everyone's going to see it differently...it's circular before it even gets going, I guess is what I'm saying.

Oh I dunno. We've already had a pretty lengthy discussion here about several different movies that SkyPilot proposed. And I've heard some interesting perspectives from many people on many of the movies. I don't think it's been too difficult to discuss. In fact this has been one of the more lively discussions that has been on Spout for several weeks!

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

pippin06 — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:22:54 GMT

Risselada:

pippin06:

pippin06:
the fact that so many people like it when maybe it's not the greatest to you personally

I think that's pretty much my definition of something being overrated.

Right, which is why I feel it's so subjective

I agree it's subjective. I get the impression you've felt like we've been saying otherwise.

No, I don't think anyone's suggested or even implied that overrated is not a subjective term, so I don't mean to give that impression. It's more me kind of whining (more or less) given the fact that y'all have such strong-seeming opinions about what is overrated and the fact that I think it takes much more for me to get to "overrated," as I've only agreed with, like, two of the picks so far. I guess my personal struggle with this conversation is more to two points 1.) how one approaches or defines overrated is so different depending on different vantage points and circumstances and 2.) even if you find that common definition, it's so subjective, so it's hard to discuss. Everyone's going to see it differently...it's circular before it even gets going, I guess is what I'm saying.

Incidentally, in that SpoutBlog post about the Oscars versus popular movies (see the Oscars group for an easy link, but Karina posted it in the last couple of days), someone commented on Karina's post that Shawshank was the Greatest.Movie.Ever! I thought of this thread and chuckled.

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

Risselada — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:10:37 GMT

pippin06:

pippin06:
the fact that so many people like it when maybe it's not the greatest to you personally

I think that's pretty much my definition of something being overrated.

Right, which is why I feel it's so subjective

I agree it's subjective. I get the impression you've felt like we've been saying otherwise.

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

pippin06 — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:03:05 GMT

pippin06:
the fact that so many people like it when maybe it's not the greatest to you personally

I think that's pretty much my definition of something being overrated.

Right, which is why I feel it's so subjective...this is the same circle I traveled in the Overrated group. One person's overrated is another person's Greatest.Film.Ever. And then, as with the Shawshank Redemption, there could be circumstantial factors that affect the public consciousness or give the film a push that it might not otherwise have had. Shakespeare in Love much? That was a good example too because no one expected that to get Best Picture, but it was notoriously campaigned for by the Weinsteins. I don't even like it all that much. Gwyneth Paltrow annoys me loads, and the story is just a slightly artsier version of your standard romance. And yet, it gets Oscar gold, and some people think it's grand. I don't know.

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

Risselada — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:20:50 GMT

pippin06:
Let's face it - The Shawshank Redemption is a good movie. In fact, it's surprisingly good; not great but it's affecting, at least. When it first came out, I don't think people paid it too much notice. It had an Oscar nom or two, but people didn't actually see it in theaters. Then, cable got a hold of the broadcast rights, and it was in major rotation to the point of "oh no not again" saturation and grew in popularity. I know I personally can't watch it anymore because I've seen it too many times. I don't know why it's so high on the IMDB's list, but it's about hope, and I think that's why people have glommed onto it. In the sense of the IMDB, I would say it is overrated. On Rotten Tomatoes, it gets an 89%. But I don't think it was overrated to start. I think, if anything, it was underrated. So, how do we account for that difference?

Overcompensation?

pippin06:
the fact that so many people like it when maybe it's not the greatest to you personally

I think that's pretty much my definition of something being overrated.

Re:Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

pippin06 — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:19:54 GMT

SkyPilot:

(For some reason this was posted way earlier in the thread, even though I wrote it 2 days ago. I'll find out why...)

I was just talking with porcupine and I realized something really important about my original list, which is:

1. The Shawshank Redemption

2. The Usual Suspects

3. Amelie

4. Forrest Gump

5. Braveheart

I'm critiquing the overrating of the films, more than I'm critiquing these films themselves.

What the heck does that mean? It means I've heard so many Americans say these are the best films ever that I can't ignore it anymore. I've heard so many Americans say these are exceptional films that I start wondering if that says something about America, or at least the people I know.

The Shawshank Redemption and The Usual Suspects ultimately get off easy with me. I think they're pretty good films, but I put them at the top because I don't understand why these particular flicks are infinitely more popular than other films. Any ideas?

And wow, Braveheart. How many of you have heard William Wallace portrayed as the pinnacle of integrity? I'm not saying Wallace is all bad, but I'm interested in looking closely at the heroes that cultures venerate. I think that in general a hero's values reflect the values of the culture (why else would hte character become a hero?).

My beef with Amelie--a pretty good movie--has more to do with a particular kind of overrating I mentioned earlier in this discussion. In other words, I dislike Amelie's ending, but I dislike the ending with a passion only because I've heard Amelie called a great love story. When I look at the film through the 'love story' lens, I don't like what I see. I'm not sure about my motivations for this, but when I feel like I'm supposed to celebrate the romantic relationship of two characters--and I'm not convinced the relationship has anything beyond warm fuzzies--I get unnerved. I don't think Amelie says nothingabout relationships. How are relationships portrayed in it?

Dang, I can be such a drag sometimes! I think I want to talk about some under-rated movies next.

Well, at least you crossed Forrest Gump off the list. I know people who don't like that movie, but I know people who do. I personally love it, and I don't think it's so overrated because you get a mixed bag of the lovers and the haters. I think the movie's incredibly profound, and I think it appeals to different people for different reasons. But, that's neither here nor there.

So, I'll talk about the other movies. Let's face it - The Shawshank Redemption is a good movie. In fact, it's surprisingly good; not great but it's affecting, at least. When it first came out, I don't think people paid it too much notice. It had an Oscar nom or two, but people didn't actually see it in theaters. Then, cable got a hold of the broadcast rights, and it was in major rotation to the point of "oh no not again" saturation and grew in popularity. I know I personally can't watch it anymore because I've seen it too many times. I don't know why it's so high on the IMDB's list, but it's about hope, and I think that's why people have glommed onto it. In the sense of the IMDB, I would say it is overrated. On Rotten Tomatoes, it gets an 89%. But I don't think it was overrated to start. I think, if anything, it was underrated. So, how do we account for that difference?

The Usual Suspects is also a really good film. It was the mindblower of its year, and I think new people discover it everyday, and if you've never seen it before, you get the full effects. Plus, Kevin Spacey's performance is kind of legendary in its own right. Plus, it's edgy with interesting characters, and that twist, which should in all probability be predictable, still catches you off guard because of how the story is told. I don't know. I think it has mass appeal for these reasons, albeit I'm not being as articulate on this point. I love this one too.

As for Braveheart - I think you said it best. Veneration of Wallace probably has more to do with the time and period in which the movie was released than the actual character or real-life guy. What were some contemporaneous current events? I remember we were still in the Clinton administration before the whole blue dress fiasco...

And, to put my cap on the Amelie discussion, I guess I've never heard the love story moniker. I've heard more of a fairy tale description because of the tremendously romantic (and I mean that in the literary sense) way Amelie uses her imagination and introversion. If you prefer Rumpelstiltskin fare, ok, but I guess I would agree with you if people are calling it a great love story. It's a bit too dysfunctional for me to subscribe to that theory, but I don't think enough people think of it that way to get us to "overrated." And maybe the point about Amelie being the gateway drug to foreign films is valid when considering "overrated," but I find that assessment, well, not nice because it's a double-edged sword to condemn a gateway film as overrated and then lambast viewers for not making more of an effort toward foreign films. It's like Harry Potter getting kids to read or John Williams getting people interested in symphonic music - people have to start somewhere.

Anyways, I don't think you're being a drag. I get that you're confused by, perhaps, the fact that so many people like it when maybe it's not the greatest to you personally, but I also think there are reasons why these films get this kind of attention, which have as much to do with the films themselves as sort of the public awareness of them.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

pippin06 — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:52:22 GMT

Risselada:

pippin06:
When I think overrated, I'm thinking of films that garner a boatload of critical and/or popular acclaim and don't live up to the hype. Braveheart was a great example. I have an example, though I really have to think about five in total - Some Like It Hot. It gets all of these awards and high-rankings for being wonderfully funny, and it is silly, but I don't laugh, except an occasional chuckle, when I watch it, and I've seen it at least twice. I don't know what the IMDB ranking is because I don't use that marker - is that what we should base our understanding of "overrated" on? It's just so subjective. I think I made this same argument, or at least thought it really hard, in the other group...I have to go check that out.

I agree with you about Some Like It Hot. I was sorely disappointed, and didn't actually laugh that much at all.

I don't think you have to use the IMDB ranking as a marker whenever you discuss whether a movie is overrated, but I think it's a valid one since it's probably the most popular and utilized movie rating website in the world.

And Some Like It Hot ranks as #79 on it's top 250 list.

See, and I was just visiting IMDB for the articles and the easy lookup of films. I didn't even notice this is other list, though I've probably heard about it in passing. I like Rotten Tomatoes, because you get actual print and media critics and then other people too. It'd be interesting to compare the two. Plus, I like tomatoes. I mean, I really like tomatoes. Though not when they're rotten.

Overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

SkyPilot — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:47:07 GMT

(For some reason this was posted way earlier in the thread, even though I wrote it 2 days ago. I'll find out why...)

I was just talking with porcupine and I realized something really important about my original list, which is:

1. The Shawshank Redemption

2. The Usual Suspects

3. Amelie

4. Forrest Gump

5. Braveheart

I'm critiquing the overrating of the films, more than I'm critiquing these films themselves.

What the heck does that mean? It means I've heard so many Americans say these are the best films ever that I can't ignore it anymore. I've heard so many Americans say these are exceptional films that I start wondering if that says something about America, or at least the people I know.

The Shawshank Redemption and The Usual Suspects ultimately get off easy with me. I think they're pretty good films, but I put them at the top because I don't understand why these particular flicks are infinitely more popular than other films. Any ideas?

And wow, Braveheart. How many of you have heard William Wallace portrayed as the pinnacle of integrity? I'm not saying Wallace is all bad, but I'm interested in looking closely at the heroes that cultures venerate. I think that in general a hero's values reflect the values of the culture (why else would hte character become a hero?).

My beef with Amelie--a pretty good movie--has more to do with a particular kind of overrating I mentioned earlier in this discussion. In other words, I dislike Amelie's ending, but I dislike the ending with a passion only because I've heard Amelie called a great love story. When I look at the film through the 'love story' lens, I don't like what I see. I'm not sure about my motivations for this, but when I feel like I'm supposed to celebrate the romantic relationship of two characters--and I'm not convinced the relationship has anything beyond warm fuzzies--I get unnerved. I don't think Amelie says nothingabout relationships. How are relationships portrayed in it?

Dang, I can be such a drag sometimes! I think I want to talk about some under-rated movies next.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:19:30 GMT

pippin06:
When I think overrated, I'm thinking of films that garner a boatload of critical and/or popular acclaim and don't live up to the hype. Braveheart was a great example. I have an example, though I really have to think about five in total - Some Like It Hot. It gets all of these awards and high-rankings for being wonderfully funny, and it is silly, but I don't laugh, except an occasional chuckle, when I watch it, and I've seen it at least twice. I don't know what the IMDB ranking is because I don't use that marker - is that what we should base our understanding of "overrated" on? It's just so subjective. I think I made this same argument, or at least thought it really hard, in the other group...I have to go check that out.

I agree with you about Some Like It Hot. I was sorely disappointed, and didn't actually laugh that much at all.

I don't think you have to use the IMDB ranking as a marker whenever you discuss whether a movie is overrated, but I think it's a valid one since it's probably the most popular and utilized movie rating website in the world.

And Some Like It Hot ranks as #79 on it's top 250 list.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

SkyPilot — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 01:05:26 GMT

pippin06:

...When I think overrated, I'm thinking of films that garner a boatload of critical and/or popular acclaim and don't live up to the hype...

...In Amelie, it's not the romance element that is the focus, as leeroy indicated. It's the main, as in title, character herself, and her creative way of reaching out and trying to make a connection when she previously would not be able to do so. It's the shy, awkward, introvert's poster-movie, not the banner of healthy romantic relationships...

It sounds like we're all thinking about several kinds of overrated. With how you guys are talking about Amelie, I wouldn't even say you're overrating it. People who say Amelie is a well-written, well-directed, well-shot, and I-wanna-pinch-its-cheeks cute story--I won't disagree with these people.

I also know people who say Amelie is a great love story. I will disagree with these people.

I think I'm biased too, because I'm not too keen on fairy tales where the object is romantic love. I'm more of a Rumplestiltskin guy.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

SkyPilot — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 00:46:40 GMT

leeroy711:

...I don't really think you could make the case that there was more than one main character in Amelie. The movie was about her not necessarily her and him. And I think I would have liked it just as much whether they ended up together or not.

Interesting point. I think I'd enjoy the movie more if I kept that in mind.

leeroy711:

The reason Amelie is a far superior movie to [Jerry Maguire] or most other romantic comedies was the direction. It was a cute little story that could have been told a number of ways. The way Jeunet told was in Jeunet's style, which is, full of French charm. The breaking off into constant tangents, the meta-film, and the overall cinematography made this movie much much more watchable.

Agreed.

leeroy711:

...It seems to be somewhat of a gateway drug when it comes to foreign films...

Well said!

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

pippin06 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:46:39 GMT

leeroy711:

SkyPilot:

pippin06:

Sheesh, SkyPilot, you nearly made me faint...

...Amelie is loads of charming and French, what do you want?

pippin06, give this message a little waft before you inhale; you may find my writing resembles ether more than smelling salts.

Amelie is indeed French, but beyond that I must disagree. I suppose one person's "charming" is another person's "cloyingly sentimental," but I'll agree to disagree on that one.

I don't know what Jeunet's intentions were with Amelie. If he just meant to make an entertaining movie, alright; I'll admit the film is a pretty little thing. But I don't think it offers anything of value about how healthy romantic relationships actually work.

My friend porcupine calls Amelie the "the hipster's Jerry Maguire" because we're shown no reason why the two characters could actually be good for one another. (Pippin, I don't mean to say you think Amelie portrays healthy romance. Whatever your perspective is, I'm interested in hearing it!)

So now you see what I'm looking for in romantic movies, and hopefully I explained how I could consider Amelie to be extremely overrated.

OK, First things first

dictionary:

cloyingly

One entry found.

Main Entry:
cloy·ing
Pronunciation:
\ˈklȯi-iŋ, ˈklȯiŋ\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1594

: disgusting or distasteful by reason of excess <cloying sweetness> ; also : excessively sweet or sentimental <a cloying romantic comedy>

Jerry Mcquire is much more about the relationship between the two main characters than Amelie is. In fact, I don't really think you could make the case that there was more than one main character in Amelie. The movie was about her not necessarily her and him. And I think I would have liked it just as much whether they ended up together or not.

The reason Amelie is a far superior movie to JM or most other romantic comedies was the direction. It was a cute little story that could have been told a number of ways. The way Jeunet told was in Jeunet's style, which is, full of French charm. The breaking off into constant tangents, the meta-film, and the overall cinematography made this movie much much more watchable.

I think it's Jeunet's style that I love more than anything and Amelie is a very good example of it. It also happens to be his first romantic comedy (Delicatessen and City of Lost Children were both quite dark) so I think it was destined to much more notice in the states.

But I digress, as much as I like it, I will admit that it is overrated. It seems to be somewhat of a gateway drug when it comes to foreign films of the past 20 years and being overrated is going to be inherant in a film like that.

See, I find it strange calling a gateway to anything "overrated" (and this is in response to Rizzo's comment too). Film aficionados decry the (at least) American masses for their general lack of wherewithal when it comes to foreign fare, and then present a film that actually gets people interested, and all of a sudden, it's a foreign film packaged for American sensibilities; it's liked just because it's cool to like it, or it's liked just because it's dumbed down enough (my paraphrase, naturally) for people to stomach it over here. Never mind that it's actually a wonderful story with some inventive direction. I'm not a Jeunet expert by any means, but I think it's the kind of fairy tale being presented in Amelie that's the draw, and, let's face it, Americans on the whole are a more conservative movie-viewing audience that are less prone to give the racier, more graphic, more in-your-face subject matter typical of many foreign films a try. Put another way, if Amelie is the microwave Stouffer's lasagna compared to the Tuscan lamb of films from elsewhere, so be it, but mark it overrated just because it's more American audience-friendly? Good night! Again, I ask, how do we define overrated?

In Amelie, it's not the romance element that is the focus, as leeroy indicated. It's the main, as in title, character herself, and her creative way of reaching out and trying to make a connection when she previously would not be able to do so. It's the shy, awkward, introvert's poster-movie, not the banner of healthy romantic relatonships, because most people, real or imagined, could not be compared to Mlle. Amelie, so why should her romance, even if it is the focus (which it really isn't), be compared to other more standard, show-me-the-money fare?

When I think overrated, I'm thinking of films that garner a boatload of critical and/or popular acclaim and don't live up to the hype. Braveheart was a great example. I have an example, though I really have to think about five in total - Some Like It Hot. It gets all of these awards and high-rankings for being wonderfully funny, and it is silly, but I don't laugh, except an occasional chuckle, when I watch it, and I've seen it at least twice. I don't know what the IMDB ranking is because I don't use that marker - is that what we should base our understanding of "overrated" on? It's just so subjective. I think I made this same argument, or at least thought it really hard, in the other group...I have to go check that out.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

leeroy711 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:30:32 GMT

SkyPilot:

Risselada:

leeroy711:

I think I'm still pissed at [Scorsese] because in 1999 I actually spent good money to see Bringing Out The Dead in the theaters. Great directors don't make movies like that.

OOOOOOOH, I only wish I had gone to see Bringing Out The Dead at the theater on that one fateful day instead of going ot see Happy, Texas instead!!!

...sorry long story

Leeroy, this made me smile. Bringing Out the Dead really appealed to my 17-year-old sensibilities; it seemed akin to Fight Club and some "outsider" authors I was reading like Charles Bukowski and Knut Hamsun. I haven't seen Bringing Out the Dead since 1999, but I have fond memories of it--the film pretty effectively put me in Nic Cage's desperate, insomniac, hallucinatory headspace.

Yeah, 17 was an "outsider" year for me.

Yeah, my memories of it were pretty different, especially when it took quite a bit of effort for me to convince my friends that we should see that one. Then we all just hated it. It took a long time for me to be able to look those guys in the eye again.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

leeroy711 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:26:52 GMT

SkyPilot:

pippin06:

Sheesh, SkyPilot, you nearly made me faint...

...Amelie is loads of charming and French, what do you want?

pippin06, give this message a little waft before you inhale; you may find my writing resembles ether more than smelling salts.

Amelie is indeed French, but beyond that I must disagree. I suppose one person's "charming" is another person's "cloyingly sentimental," but I'll agree to disagree on that one.

I don't know what Jeunet's intentions were with Amelie. If he just meant to make an entertaining movie, alright; I'll admit the film is a pretty little thing. But I don't think it offers anything of value about how healthy romantic relationships actually work.

My friend porcupine calls Amelie the "the hipster's Jerry Maguire" because we're shown no reason why the two characters could actually be good for one another. (Pippin, I don't mean to say you think Amelie portrays healthy romance. Whatever your perspective is, I'm interested in hearing it!)

So now you see what I'm looking for in romantic movies, and hopefully I explained how I could consider Amelie to be extremely overrated.

OK, First things first

dictionary:

cloyingly

One entry found.

Main Entry:
cloy·ing
Pronunciation:
\ˈklȯi-iŋ, ˈklȯiŋ\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1594

: disgusting or distasteful by reason of excess <cloying sweetness> ; also : excessively sweet or sentimental <a cloying romantic comedy>

Jerry Mcquire is much more about the relationship between the two main characters than Amelie is. In fact, I don't really think you could make the case that there was more than one main character in Amelie. The movie was about her not necessarily her and him. And I think I would have liked it just as much whether they ended up together or not.

The reason Amelie is a far superior movie to JM or most other romantic comedies was the direction. It was a cute little story that could have been told a number of ways. The way Jeunet told was in Jeunet's style, which is, full of French charm. The breaking off into constant tangents, the meta-film, and the overall cinematography made this movie much much more watchable.

I think it's Jeunet's style that I love more than anything and Amelie is a very good example of it. It also happens to be his first romantic comedy (Delicatessen and City of Lost Children were both quite dark) so I think it was destined to much more notice in the states.

But I digress, as much as I like it, I will admit that it is overrated. It seems to be somewhat of a gateway drug when it comes to foreign films of the past 20 years and being overrated is going to be inherant in a film like that.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

SkyPilot — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:07:00 GMT

Risselada:

leeroy711:

I think I'm still pissed at [Scorsese] because in 1999 I actually spent good money to see Bringing Out The Dead in the theaters. Great directors don't make movies like that.

OOOOOOOH, I only wish I had gone to see Bringing Out The Dead at the theater on that one fateful day instead of going ot see Happy, Texas instead!!!

...sorry long story

Leeroy, this made me smile. Bringing Out the Dead really appealed to my 17-year-old sensibilities; it seemed akin to Fight Club and some "outsider" authors I was reading like Charles Bukowski and Knut Hamsun. I haven't seen Bringing Out the Dead since 1999, but I have fond memories of it--the film pretty effectively put me in Nic Cage's desperate, insomniac, hallucinatory headspace.

Yeah, 17 was an "outsider" year for me.

Top 5 overrated movies: Why do I have to be a drag?

SkyPilot — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:01:26 GMT

I was just talking with porcupine and I realized something really important about my original list, which is:

1. The Shawshank Redemption

2. The Usual Suspects

3. Amelie

4. Forrest Gump

5. Braveheart

I'm critiquing the overrating of the films, more than I'm critiquing these films themselves.

My beef with Amelie--a pretty good movie--has more to do with a particular kind of overrating I mentioned earlier in this discussion. In other words, I dislike Amelie's ending, but I dislike the ending with a passion only because I've heard Amelie called a great love story. When I look at the film through the 'love story' lens, I don't like what I see. I'm not sure about my motivations for this, but when I feel like I'm supposed to celebrate the romantic relationship of two characters, and I'm not convinced the relationship has anything beyond warm fuzzies...I get unnerved. I don't think Amelie says nothing about relationships. How are relationships portrayed in it?

Dang, I can be such a drag sometimes! I think I want to talk about some under-rated movies next.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:44:51 GMT

leeroy711:

I referred to those three because they are all on IMDB's top 250 list and I just don't see why. And I think I'm still pissed at him because in 1999 I actually spent good money to see Bringing Out The Dead in the theaters. Great directors don't make movies like that.

OOOOOOOH, I only wish I had gone to see Bringing Out The Dead at the theater on that one fateful day instead of going ot see Happy, Texas instead!!!

...sorry long story

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

Risselada — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:43:16 GMT

SkyPilot:

leeroy711:

SkyPilot:

3. Amelie

Boooooooooo!!!

I love this one and everything else by Juenet. The rest of the list I can't disagree with but mine would look more like:

1. Platoon - Hamburger Hill was better........... trust me.

2. Goodfellas/Casino/Taxi Driver - I didn't really get into a Scorsese film until The Departed. These others were OK, but that's about it. If it weren't for Oliver Stone, Martin Scorsese would be the most overrated director.

Of the three Juenet films I've seen, I've liked Amelie the least. My favorite by him is Delicatessen.

I luke Jeunet too, and Delicatessen is also my favorite. And I do think Amelie is a good movie, but the reason why I would agree that it is overrated is because every person who would normally never seen a foreign film ends up seeing Amelie somehow and and declares it their favorite foreign movie. If you look at the structure, it's really a foreign movie designed for American sensibilities in what they think a good foreign movie should be.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

leeroy711 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:31:14 GMT

pippin06:

leeroy, I think you are harsh on Scorsese, and he didn't only make those three flicks prior to the Departed. In the land of overrated for Scorsese, I submit Gangs of New York and The Aviator. I hate them, and they were nominated a million times for a million awards (and were some in the long line of Scorsese's no-Oscar curse).

I referred to those three because they are all on IMDB's top 250 list and I just don't see why. And I think I'm still pissed at him because in 1999 I actually spent good money to see Bringing Out The Dead in the theaters. Great directors don't make movies like that.

On a side note: I think the very following week, at the same theater, I paid the same good money to see Eye of the Beholder......................... That was a bad month.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

leeroy711 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:20:12 GMT

SkyPilot:

Of the three Juenet films I've seen, I've liked Amelie the least. My favorite by him is Delicatessen.

I'll have to see Hamburger Hill. I think part of why I like Platoon so much is that I watched it with my dad when I was 13. I wonder if love of the film is a coming-of-age, nostalgia thing for a lot of dudes? Like someone insisting Little Monsters is great, but they haven't seen it in sixteen years.

I think you're on to something there. I can definately attribute the beginning of my love affair with the Coen Bros. films to when my Dad took me to see Fargo in the theater.

SkyPilot:

Wow, Scorsese the 2nd-most overrated director ever! I agree that Goodfellas and Casino are just good gangster movies at best, and The Departed knocks the lining out of 'em both.

On the other hand, even though I don't love Taxi Driver--and I don't even particularly enjoy it--when I've watched it (twice), I've had this sensation that something new was happening. Like the "You talkin' to me scene," the date with Cybil Shepherd, the meal with Jodie Foster--there's something there for me, something raw and real and scary.

All the Scorsese films I mentioned have one thing in common: I felt the pacing was way too slow and they build up to an ending that is very unsatisfying. In fact, now that I think about it, Gangs of New York was pretty much the same experience for me. If a film's going to be that long winded, it should do a better job of wowing you to complete the story in the end.

I will say that The Departed was obviously his best work, and it took me about a year and a half to finally decide that I should watch it.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

pippin06 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 03:59:21 GMT

leeroy711:

SkyPilot:

3. Amelie

Boooooooooo!!!

I love this one and everything else by Juenet. The rest of the list I can't disagree with but mine would look more like:

1. Platoon - Hamburger Hill was better........... trust me.

2. Goodfellas/Casino/Taxi Driver - I didn't really get into a Scorsese film until The Departed. These others were OK, but that's about it. If it weren't for Oliver Stone, Martin Scorsese would be the most overrated director.

3. Shakespeare In Love - this was when I stopped watching or caring about the Oscars

4. Gladiator - see No. 3 - And I actually liked Black Hawk Down better for a Ridley Scott film.

5. Shawshank Redemption - This one was clever but c'mon. No. 1 on IMDB's top 250 list is just ridiculous.

leeroy, I think you are harsh on Scorsese, and he didn't only make those three flicks prior to the Departed. In the land of overrated for Scorsese, I submit Gangs of New York and The Aviator. I hate them, and they were nominated a million times for a million awards (and were some in the long line of Scorsese's no-Oscar curse).

Though, I totally agree with Gladiator (also doesn't hold up to repeat viewings) and Shakespeare in Love. I was hot when the latter won Best Picture thanks to the alpha-campaignig of the Weinsteins. Saving Private Ryan is a much better film, and I personally and generally prefer romances to war movies any day, but come on.

And now I see why Shawshank might be considered overrated Ok, I concede on that point, but I'm with leeroy on Amelie.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

pippin06 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 03:55:18 GMT

SkyPilot:

1. The Shawshank Redemption

2. The Usual Suspects

3. Amelie

4. Forrest Gump

5. Braveheart

I enjoy all of these to some degree (especially Braveheart, which is deeply un-good in some ways)...but let's be honest...these aren't great films.

Who disagrees with me?

I was prompted to post this by the Most Overrated Movies group.

Booo on all except Braveheart. Sheesh, SkyPilot, you nearly made me faint.

But, as with the OverRated group, I have to ask how we define overrated? Amelie and The Shawshank Redemption have had slow momentum getting to any type of "overrated" status, if they can truly be called that (I never called Shawshank "great," but it's a good movie, and Amelie is loads of charming and French, what do you want?). Forrest Gump you could argue, since it won Best Picture, but I feel this movie is sorely misunderstood and, in some ways, completely underrated by the naysayers. And The Usual Suspects may not hold up to repeat viewings once the viewer knows the ending, and may not have the best acting ensemble outside of Kevin Spacey, but the movie's brilliant because of Kev's performance and the truly original twisty plot.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

SkyPilot — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 01:02:40 GMT

leeroy711:

SkyPilot:

3. Amelie

Boooooooooo!!!

I love this one and everything else by Juenet. The rest of the list I can't disagree with but mine would look more like:

1. Platoon - Hamburger Hill was better........... trust me.

2. Goodfellas/Casino/Taxi Driver - I didn't really get into a Scorsese film until The Departed. These others were OK, but that's about it. If it weren't for Oliver Stone, Martin Scorsese would be the most overrated director.

Of the three Jeunet films I've seen, I've liked Amelie the least. My favorite by him is Delicatessen.

I'll have to see Hamburger Hill. I think part of why I like Platoon so much is that I watched it with my dad when I was 13. I wonder if love of the film is a coming-of-age, nostalgia thing for a lot of dudes? Like someone insisting Little Monsters is great, but they haven't seen it in sixteen years.

Wow, Scorsese the 2nd-most overrated director ever! I agree that Goodfellas and Casino are just good gangster movies at best, and The Departed knocks the lining out of 'em both.

On the other hand, even though I don't love Taxi Driver--and I don't even particularly enjoy it--when I've watched it (twice), I've had this sensation that something new was happening. Like the "You talkin' to me scene," the date with Cybil Shepherd, the meal with Jodie Foster--there's something there for me, something raw and real and scary.

Re:Top 5 Overrated Movies

leeroy711 — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:19:24 GMT

SkyPilot:

3. Amelie

Boooooooooo!!!

I love this one and everything else by Juenet. The rest of the list I can't disagree with but mine would look more like:

1. Platoon - Hamburger Hill was better........... trust me.

2. Goodfellas/Casino/Taxi Driver - I didn't really get into a Scorsese film until The Departed. These others were OK, but that's about it. If it weren't for Oliver Stone, Martin Scorsese would be the most overrated director.

3. Shakespeare In Love - this was when I stopped watching or caring about the Oscars

4. Gladiator - see No. 3 - And I actually liked Black Hawk Down better for a Ridley Scott film.

5. Shawshank Redemption - This one was clever but c'mon. No. 1 on IMDB's top 250 list is just ridiculous.

Top 5 Overrated Movies

SkyPilot — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:44:31 GMT

1. The Shawshank Redemption

2. The Usual Suspects

3. Amelie

4. Forrest Gump

5. Braveheart

I enjoy all of these to some degree (especially Braveheart, which is deeply un-good in some ways)...but let's be honest...these aren't great films.

Who disagrees with me?

I was prompted to post this by the Most Overrated Movies group.