Weekly Theme

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Risselada — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:44:56 GMT

Good description Ryan!

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

rjsprague — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:18:10 GMT

It's DEUS EX MACHINA Gor, (day-oos ex ma-key-na), and I think there are certain degrees to which this can exist in a story. Obviously the original meaning is the machines of the gods, which is in relation to Greek theater. Regardless the definition that has been set up perhaps somewhat poorly.

I would add some personal clarifications to my own understanding of this particular tendency of writers. I think springing a surprise upon viewers that is so hard to accept that they are no longer able to suspend their disbelief is a good description of DEM, but it doesn't explain how it comes about. It's one of those "I got up and walked out of the theater because that movie sucked so bad moments". That's very strong DEM in literal terms.

I would posit that all stories, that hold water, use literary devices such as metaphors, symbols, foreshadowing, allegory, et. al. When a writer fails to use these kinds of devices, or they are simply stripped from a film, the story suffers the loss of key elements that allow the audience to be led towards the obvious conclusion. Now some writers will make the audience think they are being led one way, but then reveal something that changes the direction they were heading in. This is a twist in the plot. This isn't DEM though.

I would say DEM occurs when writers provide poor leadership, either too strong, or too weak, that causes the audience to be led to make certain conclusions about the world described in the film, it's characters, etc. And then introduces something into that world without providing a logical explanation to its existence. Most viewers might be left feeling as though they had expected a certain outcome, they had every right to expect this outcome because every bit of information they had been given led them to believe this, and yet it didn't happen because the writer already had a specific ending in mind and in order to achieve said ending brought in an element that didn't belong, lacked explanation, etc.

In the case of Signs I am not really upset about the use of DEM because the movie wasn't about the alien invasion. If you want to watch a movie ABOUT alien invasions there are others that are more believable. Therefore, the use of DEM in Signs is excusable for me, because it hardly detracted from the meaning of the film. Some people, who lack brainpower, though Signs was a movie about an alien invasion, and so were very upset about the use of DEM in the film. The use of the aliens' poisonous gas at the end was used effectively to prove a point. Also, the little girls' water glasses everywhere served the greater meaning being discussed in the film. In fact the film was masterful in its ability to create a single message, which it delivered clearly, even if you didn't agree with it. It could have been an invasion of bunny rabbits, and its still wouldn't have mattered.

Unfortunately many stories aren't like this. The lack any significant message, and their use of DEM ruins the shallow story such that you're left with nothing. This is always disappointing.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Risselada — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:31:46 GMT

Dr_Gor:

I am a lifelong (40+ years) horror addict to both on screen horror and in the written word. And I must say that this whole "duche machine" makes very little sense to me and I can't really think of ANY examples where this has come into play! Sure, there are quite a few movies in which a convenient plot twist saves the day but I think that in ALL of these stories that plot twist was carefully thought out and premeditated. I just don't buy into your "duche machine" theory at all...

< GOR >

Well Gor, you are a very forgiving horror movie critic.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Dr_Gor — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 02:31:40 GMT

I am a lifelong (40+ years) horror addict to both on screen horror and in the written word. And I must say that this whole "duche machine" makes very little sense to me and I can't really think of ANY examples where this has come into play! Sure, there are quite a few movies in which a convenient plot twist saves the day but I think that in ALL of these stories that plot twist was carefully thought out and premeditated. I just don't buy into your "duche machine" theory at all...

< GOR >

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

mercurial — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:09:06 GMT

Risselada:

I don't think we have to always label the Deus Ex Machina as something pejorative. Those who recognize basic narrative devices may use it ironically or for some other purpose. Such as in The Hudsucker Proxy. Do you find this use of Deus Ex Machina sloppy or completely intentional and aware?

I don't think of a deus ex machina within a film as an inherently bad thing. More often than not, I find myself enjoying its various uses.

Terry Gilliam has more or less embraced the idea of a deus ex machina in great films like Time Bandits and Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Risselada — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:14:59 GMT

leeroy711:
I would say the latter, but then again, I think a lot of people would refer to Rizzo & I as "Coen bros. apologists"

It's true, and I will even admit for myself at rare times to an almost fanatical and illogical extent.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

leeroy711 — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:25:06 GMT

Risselada:

mercurial:

Risselada:

Wasn't it also a virus that kills the aliens suddenly in The War of the Worlds?

I was thinking of this movie too, but then I read a little article saying that the demise of the aliens by the simplest of organisms was actually apropos. But then again, it could just have been someone trying to make excuses for it.

I see what you are saying. So is it incorrect to refer to a conclusion that seems to come out of nowhere in terms of plot, but upon review it seems appropriate thematically?

I don't think we have to always label the Deus Ex Machina as something pejorative. Those who recognize basic narrative devices may use it ironically or for some other purpose. Such as in The Hudsucker Proxy. Do you find this use of Deus Ex Machina sloppy or completely intentional and aware?

I would say the latter, but then again, I think a lot of people would refer to Rizzo & I as "Coen bros. apologists"

I think this is why you can't always say that the DEM aspect always takes away from the story. A good definition I read referred to the fact that, when inappropriatly used, it contradicts the inner logic of the rest of the story. Sometimes it's just a good surprise ending though.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Risselada — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:22:59 GMT

Risselada:

mercurial:

Risselada:

Wasn't it also a virus that kills the aliens suddenly in The War of the Worlds?

I was thinking of this movie too, but then I read a little article saying that the demise of the aliens by the simplest of organisms was actually apropos. But then again, it could just have been someone trying to make excuses for it.

I see what you are saying. So is it incorrect to refer to a conclusion that seems to come out of nowhere in terms of plot, but upon review it seems appropriate thematically?

I don't think we have to always label the Deus Ex Machina as something pejorative. Those who recognize basic narrative devices may use it ironically or for some other purpose. Such as in The Hudsucker Proxy. Do you find this use of Deus Ex Machina sloppy or completely intentional and aware?

And also, the Deus Ex Machina scenarios are actually sometimes more true to life. Often as we go through life, things pop into our lives out of nowwhere, sometimes resolving issues that we considered part of our internal narrative. But there is no way we could have known this was comming. Most typical movie making, the kind that really entertains most audiences is not very realistic. Real life includes lots of extraneous information in terms of trying to follow a tight narrative. And often few of the clues and information about what is coming up in our lives, at least when you compare your real life to what happens in many movies.

But then maybe that's why lots of people say that movies that are really true to life are boring.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Risselada — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:15:53 GMT

mercurial:

Risselada:

Wasn't it also a virus that kills the aliens suddenly in The War of the Worlds?

I was thinking of this movie too, but then I read a little article saying that the demise of the aliens by the simplest of organisms was actually apropos. But then again, it could just have been someone trying to make excuses for it.

I see what you are saying. So is it incorrect to refer to a conclusion that seems to come out of nowhere in terms of plot, but upon review it seems appropriate thematically?

I don't think we have to always label the Deus Ex Machina as something pejorative. Those who recognize basic narrative devices may use it ironically or for some other purpose. Such as in The Hudsucker Proxy. Do you find this use of Deus Ex Machina sloppy or completely intentional and aware?

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Dr_Gor — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 02:01:17 GMT

Thank you, Leeroy. Your explanation has clarified this a bit for me. But I am still not sure if I like the term or it's meaning. For example, Michael Chrighton wrote The Andromeda Strain as a novel before it was ever a movie. The ending of the movie followed closely with the novel. Don't you think that Chrighton had this entire story (INCLUDING the ending) worked out in his mind BEFORE he ever wrote the first words on paper? That 'duche machiny' thing doesn't work here. Chrighton was a genius who also attended medical school and who wrote several GREAT stories and even directed some of them! The 13th Warrior (Eaters of the Dead), Jurassic Park and Westworld are among the many things this guy has written. I don't think he has ever "written himself into a corner" EVER in his life! The same with Orson Welles and The War of the Worlds ...

< GOR >

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

leeroy711 — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:49:13 GMT

Dr_Gor:

Risselada:

mercurial:

A well-known modern example of deus ex machinaoccurs in the Michael Crichton book The Andromeda Strain. The pathogen referred to in the title is suddenly rendered non-lethal by a random mutation which apparently affects every existing virus particle instantaneously.

Wasn't it also a virus that kills the aliens suddenly in The War of the Worlds?

And the The Wizard of Oz has Dorothy suddenly finding out she could go home all along just by using her slippers. But since everything is kind of goofy in Oz and there isn't a lot of expectations or logic anyways, I don't know if this really counts.

Thank you, Rizzo.   I was going to bring up The War of the Worlds but you guys beat me to it.   The Wizard of OZ is another good one.

   Here is my rather lengthy question for you guys..

   I can completely understand your definition of this "duche in the machine" thing and it makes perfect sense to me.   Using a cheap plot device to rescue your main characters and your story?   UNHEARD OF!   I think that this exact thing exists in EVERY single story ever filmed or written or told!   Isn't THAT what makes a good story?   A series of highly unusual but possible events occuring at just the right time to make something extraordinary happen?   So what is the difference between this and that "douche" thing?\

   Secondly, I am (more or less) a writer.   I have been working on the same novel-length story off and on for more than the past few years...   My story is pretty much original but it borrows heavily from films such as The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and The Hills Have Eyes and Anthropaphagus as well as such novels as Jack Ketchum's "Off Season" (which I can't believe hasn't been made into a movie yet!) and "AMOK" by George Fox...

   Basically my story revolves around a string of VERY unlikely events all occurring at just the right time to create a "perfect storm", if you will...   I think that basically ALL stories incorporate this to some extent!   So I would really like you to explain to me just what is this "douche machine" of which you speak...

                                                                                                < GOR >

I don't think the fact that a very unlikely event happens in the story is a bad thing or something to be critical of. The problem is when it is so blatantly obvious that the writer used this device for no other reason than because he has written himself into a corner. As is the case in Signs and the Andromeda Strain. It really contradicts the previous logic of the rest of the story.

To contrast, if the story has contained a series of unlikely events, these events are much more acceptable to the audience because the story has set itself up in that way. Think of a movie with a seemingly simple crime plot in which everything that could have gone wrong does.(Elevator to the Gallows) I don't think that you would refer to that as dues ex machina because you can't really pinpoint one single event that just had to happen in order for the story to continue.

I think another good example of DEM is when the mastermind criminal makes the stupidest mistake ever, like leaves his gun sitting somewhere that's easily accessible to the hero. This type of thing really attacks everything you've come to know about the characters from the rest of the story. I would also submit the "it was all just a dream" ending along the same lines.

I think another example is something that you will sometimes see in bad horror sequels like I Still Know.... and Scream 3. These movies set themselves up a somewhat of a whodunit mystery. The only problem is that you are missing vital information about certain characters until the very end. 5 minutes before the final credits roll, you are exposed to the "OH, by the way..." info about one of the characters being related to someone somehow or whatever. This clearly shows lack of comprehensive writing skill and the screenwriters should be tied to a fence and flogged for it.

I hope my bloviated and opinionated rantings have given some insight into this subject. I will say however that there can sometimes be a fine line. After all, why would we watch a movie in which only ordinary events take place.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Dr_Gor — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:10:09 GMT

Risselada:

mercurial:

A well-known modern example of deus ex machinaoccurs in the Michael Crichton book The Andromeda Strain. The pathogen referred to in the title is suddenly rendered non-lethal by a random mutation which apparently affects every existing virus particle instantaneously.

Wasn't it also a virus that kills the aliens suddenly in The War of the Worlds?

And the The Wizard of Oz has Dorothy suddenly finding out she could go home all along just by using her slippers. But since everything is kind of goofy in Oz and there isn't a lot of expectations or logic anyways, I don't know if this really counts.

Thank you, Rizzo. I was going to bring up The War of the Worlds but you guys beat me to it. The Wizard of OZ is another good one.

Here is my rather lengthy question for you guys..

I can completely understand your definition of this "duche in the machine" thing and it makes perfect sense to me. Using a cheap plot device to rescue your main characters and your story? UNHEARD OF! I think that this exact thing exists in EVERY single story ever filmed or written or told! Isn't THAT what makes a good story? A series of highly unusual but possible events occuring at just the right time to make something extraordinary happen? So what is the difference between this and that "douche" thing?\

Secondly, I am (more or less) a writer. I have been working on the same novel-length story off and on for more than the past few years... My story is pretty much original but it borrows heavily from films such as The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and The Hills Have Eyes and Anthropaphagus as well as such novels as Jack Ketchum's "Off Season" (which I can't believe hasn't been made into a movie yet!) and "AMOK" by George Fox...

Basically my story revolves around a string of VERY unlikely events all occurring at just the right time to create a "perfect storm", if you will... I think that basically ALL stories incorporate this to some extent! So I would really like you to explain to me just what is this "douche machine" of which you speak...

< GOR >

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

rjsprague — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:45:28 GMT

I recall the Hudsucker Proxy's amusing use of Deus Ex Machina.

My contribution today would have to be Signs. The alien invasions is conveniently stopped when it is discovered that good old H20 is a corrosive acid for the invaders. (Why would you invade a planet that was 75% water if water can kill you?)

I would potentially reference Independence Day as a film that also utilizes deus ex machina, but that might be slightly more subjective.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

leeroy711 — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 05:08:22 GMT

mercurial:

Probably one of the most flagrant uses of a deus ex machina in recent film history has to be in Magnolia (I won't give any spoilers for those who haven't seen the film, so let's just say it involves one of the biblical plagues occurring in the center of Los Angeles).

Along the same lines as Magnolia, you would have to mention The Hudsucker Proxy.

It's weird, in both of those cases, I actually liked the how the movie turned out. I think that if mechinism used it sooo illogical and far out, it kinda works. I think it's just because it still shows creativity on the part of the screenwriter. Where as in the case of Shakespeare in Love, the mechinism makes it seem like the writer was stuck in a corner and this is a ditch effort to fix it.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

leeroy711 — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:43:35 GMT

mercurial:

Another spoofing of the Deus Ex Machina is in Dodgeball at the end when the money is presented in a giant treasure chest that has the phrase Deus Ex Machina printed on the front.

Oh yeah, don't forget about Beerfest - When Kevin Heffernan dies........... and oh yeah, forgot to mention, he had a twin brother.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

mercurial — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:31:10 GMT

Another spoofing of the Deus Ex Machina is in Dodgeball at the end when the money is presented in a giant treasure chest that has the phrase Deus Ex Machina printed on the front.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

mercurial — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:28:50 GMT

Risselada:

Wasn't it also a virus that kills the aliens suddenly in The War of the Worlds?

I was thinking of this movie too, but then I read a little article saying that the demise of the aliens by the simplest of organisms was actually apropos. But then again, it could just have been someone trying to make excuses for it.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

Risselada — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:25:50 GMT

mercurial:

A well-known modern example of deus ex machinaoccurs in the Michael Crichton book The Andromeda Strain. The pathogen referred to in the title is suddenly rendered non-lethal by a random mutation which apparently affects every existing virus particle instantaneously.

Wasn't it also a virus that kills the aliens suddenly in The War of the Worlds?

And the The Wizard of Oz has Dorothy suddenly finding out she could go home all along just by using her slippers. But since everything is kind of goofy in Oz and there isn't a lot of expectations or logic anyways, I don't know if this really counts.

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

seely — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:02:55 GMT

This isn't necessarily a great example of the theme, but I've always found it exceedingly interesting that the phrase is used in Donnie Darko. When Donnie is in the bathroom, about to get his ass kicked, someone else walks in and Seth (who has a 666 in his locker if you look closely) is forced to back down. At that point, Donnie whispers a barely audible 'deus ex machina'. It's always been a bit of a confusing point in the film for me, and I suppose that it could simply be that the unexpected entrance of someone else, however I find it interesting the writers specifically referenced 'deus ex machina' instead of simply having Donnie say 'thank god' or something to that effect. Maybe I'm looking for meaning where there isn't any?

mercurial:

A deus ex machina (lat. IPA: [ˈdeːus eks ˈmaːkʰina], literally "god from a/the machine")^[1] is a god brought on the stage by a mechanical device^[2] or 'an improbable contrivance in a story characterized by a sudden unexpected solution to a seemingly intractable problem'.^[1] Thus, the term "deus ex machina" has come to mean any inferior plot device that expeditiously solves the conflict of a narrative.

In fiction writing, the phrase has been extended to refer to a sudden and unexpected resolution to a seemingly intractable problem in a plotline, or what might be called an "Oh, by the way..." ending.^[1] A deus ex machina is generally undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of skill on the part of the author because it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though more palatable, ending.^[29] A well-known modern example of deus ex machinaoccurs in the Michael Crichton book The Andromeda Strain. The pathogen referred to in the title is suddenly rendered non-lethal by a random mutation which apparently affects every existing virus particle instantaneously.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This week is all about those films that use some "creative storytelling" to further a plot that might otherwise be stymied. Probably one of the most flagrant uses of a deus ex machina in recent film history has to be in Magnolia (I won't give any spoilers for those who haven't seen the film, so let's just say it involves one of the biblical plagues occurring in the center of Los Angeles). My personal favorites have to be in Shakespeare in Love when Queen Elizabeth suddenly appears to save the day and declare that Gwyneth Paltrow is really a man and Adaptation, the film about writing a film, which pokes fun at Hollywood writers that use D.E.M. in their films.

Has time sorted things to where using a deus ex machina is a good thing? Or was Horace right in thinking it is a moronic device that shows a lack of creativity? Should films avoid it and leave it for television shows like The Simpsons? Let get talkin!

Re:Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

MonoMan — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:57:42 GMT

Well, I just have to mention one of the many really bad movies that's used a deus ex machina.

I refer to the horrible M. Night Shyamalan movie "The Happening"...

Yes I do, and it's not very kind-hearted to kick the one who's already floored (theres a typical Swedish expression for you all), but, in this context, I just have to.

Da plants! Da plants! They are-a killing us! But why? Oh why?

Dead! Now they're dead! Da plants are all dead! And why?

The Deus Ex Machina factor of this movie is so obvious that I don't have to point it out really. It's driven by nonlogical unexplained events, and the only way for the director to end this nonsense is by...

What? Da plants! Da plants are all dead! And why? They didn't want to attack us humans anymore? Or is it because plants don't have any logical thinking whatsoever, them being plants and all? No, it must be because The Force Of Nature, which started all this, just decided to also end it all.

Ok, let's end this movie.

(But let's open up the possibility of "The Happening 2 - Revenge Of The Algae!).

Weekly Theme for November 10: Whatchamacallit, a Deus Ex Machina!

mercurial — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:54:33 GMT

A deus ex machina (lat. IPA: [ˈdeːus eks ˈmaːkʰina], literally "god from a/the machine")^[1] is a god brought on the stage by a mechanical device^[2] or 'an improbable contrivance in a story characterized by a sudden unexpected solution to a seemingly intractable problem'.^[1] Thus, the term "deus ex machina" has come to mean any inferior plot device that expeditiously solves the conflict of a narrative.

In fiction writing, the phrase has been extended to refer to a sudden and unexpected resolution to a seemingly intractable problem in a plotline, or what might be called an "Oh, by the way..." ending.^[1] A deus ex machina is generally undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of skill on the part of the author because it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though more palatable, ending.^[29] A well-known modern example of deus ex machinaoccurs in the Michael Crichton book The Andromeda Strain. The pathogen referred to in the title is suddenly rendered non-lethal by a random mutation which apparently affects every existing virus particle instantaneously.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This week is all about those films that use some "creative storytelling" to further a plot that might otherwise be stymied. Probably one of the most flagrant uses of a deus ex machina in recent film history has to be in Magnolia (I won't give any spoilers for those who haven't seen the film, so let's just say it involves one of the biblical plagues occurring in the center of Los Angeles). My personal favorites have to be in Shakespeare in Love when Queen Elizabeth suddenly appears to save the day and declare that Gwyneth Paltrow is really a man and Adaptation, the film about writing a film, which pokes fun at Hollywood writers that use D.E.M. in their films.

Has time sorted things to where using a deus ex machina is a good thing? Or was Horace right in thinking it is a moronic device that shows a lack of creativity? Should films avoid it and leave it for television shows like The Simpsons? Let get talkin!