FilmCouch

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

joem18b — Thu, 24 May 2007 20:38:58 GMT

Speaking of Nazis, I was thinking about Der Untergang ("Downfall," 2004). Hitler has to be the worst or one of the worst villains of all time, but watching Bruno Ganz portray him (Ganz, the angel in "Wings of Desire" - what a contrast) as a human being who killed millions but was kind to his cook and kids and his dog, and crazy... Hard to know how to react...

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

joem18b — Thu, 24 May 2007 17:50:47 GMT

Another movie podcast this week asked for "top bad guys." Apropos this thread, I submitted Ronald Reagan (Richard Crenna) in "The Day Reagan Was Shot" (2001).

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

mattypro — Wed, 23 May 2007 16:00:19 GMT

Wow Jymkata...I don't think I could have put my thoughts into words any better than you did there. How did you read my mind? Just kidding...but really, you make VERY good points there. I am NOT very patriotic...however, I find that bashing "America" or "Americans" is just silly....The differeneces you point out between Americans and solidiers, arms dealers, racists, etc are dead on.

Now "Southerners...." Again...just kidding. Sorta.

Matt

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Jymkata — Fri, 11 May 2007 19:12:56 GMT

Boy, Puhnner - I've got to disagree with you here. I don't see anything interesting or truthful in condemning "the good ol' USA" (as you put it) as villains. That would be like me replacing Nazis with Germans or Germany in my original posts. In each of the four movies you described above I did not read into the subtext that the responsibility for the characters actions were a direct result of their nationality. I agree that they were all americans, but they were extreme examples - racist vietnam soldiers, racist indian fighters, international spies, and arms dealers. Nicholas Cage's character isn't even American born - I think it is more a comment on capitalism witnout morals.

Maybe I'm just coming off a hot, hard day here in GR and I'm irritable, but I think it's waaaayyy too popular to blast Americans on the internet without having to generalize Americans as "truthfully" being villains. Anyway, I hate political rants on a film discussion board, so I'll stop here. I'd rather you grouped the villains as imperialist soldiers, arms dealers, and racists than just the "good ol USA" - I feel no connection to those characters just because we hail from the same country .

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Puhnner — Fri, 11 May 2007 13:15:54 GMT

an interesting, but truthful twist (at least as I see it ) on this would be show the good ol' USA as the jackboot or suit wearing, arms dealing villain metaphorically/allegorically or just 'there you have it'...you could start with The Quiet American, Casualties of War, Syriana , Little Big Man, Lord of War : hell the list goes on and on now that I think about it. I don't find that we have the 'camp' factor that I associate with Nazism, but we sure have the jingoism/xenophopia/deathdealing

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Jymkata — Thu, 10 May 2007 23:22:06 GMT

Just jumping in here, but I think the best movie villains are always Nazis. Something about a mixture of dedication to mechanical precision and nonsensical hatred of any perceived differences combined with an almost inhuman capacity for cruelty makes for a terrifying villain. Whether it's the elegant Nazi's in Casablanca and Notorious, or the jackbooted thugs in Raiders of the Lost Ark or Open City, or the satanic monsters in Come and See or Sophie's Choice, the Third Reich always gives me someone worthy of my anxiety and hatred.

Oh yeah, and "Lost" rocks! I know some people have given up on the unending mysteries but I love that I have 3 more years of smart writing and great acting. Ben and the Others continue to intrigue me as villains.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

porcupine — Thu, 10 May 2007 17:50:58 GMT

Here's a twist: What about the documentay villain? What comes to my mind is a redeemed villain of sorts, Robert McNamara in Fog of War.

Also, did anybody watch Lost last night? My wife and I are hooked. Every episode they do flashbacks of one character, and this time it was Ben, the super creepy and evil leader of the "Others." It was interesting to see their take on the classic question of a villain's origins. It was not terribly original (small spoiler here): His dad abused him! But his level of evil in that show doesn't even make me begin to seriously ask the question, "is he just a product of his environment?" No, Ben. You are not. You are just plain evil.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Puhnner — Wed, 09 May 2007 21:20:27 GMT

I am looking forward to seeing this one, but has anyone seen The Terrorist or The War Within ???

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

vidiocy — Wed, 09 May 2007 19:39:22 GMT

My dad and I actually had a big argument about this when American Beauty came out. At the time, my dad was undergoing a major transformation in his social and political beliefs, almost entirely spawned by the Clinton/Lewinsky thing--he went from being a semi-liberal guy to being really socialy conservative overnight. He hated the film, because it hinged on the audience being able to sympathise with, as I think he put it, "the bad behavior of the morally bankrupt." Meanwhile, I was a 19-year-old college kid, and I really didn't see what the problem was with a character who dropped a suffocating lifestyle which served primarily to support his selfish, o focus on vanity and pleasure. Actually, to this day, I think the major problem with that film is that everyone has to suffer in the end because of a chain reaction that happens when the one nice guy in the neighborhood reduces himself to the rest of the community's level.

So, I don't think Lester is a villain as much as he's a weak guy trying to keep up with a world full of villains, and trapped in a film that won't give him the chance to break out of the pack and pursue any sort of subversive glory.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Risselada — Wed, 09 May 2007 19:36:04 GMT

porcupine:
Another one to look out for is Day Night Day Night, which opens in limited release on Friday. Also on Friday the new FilmCouch comes out, where we feature an interview with the director, Julia Loktev. I think the film is amazing, and it sheds new light on this whole discussion. If it opens in your town, go see it. Or a least be sure to check out the trailer. If you can't get it to work on Spout, click here.

It would be nice to finally see that after all you guys have talked about it.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

porcupine — Wed, 09 May 2007 18:30:37 GMT

"There are "bad guys" in some movies that have almost the exact same characteristics as "good guys" in other movies."

This is interesting to me. I think we touched on it in the podcast, but there are many different ways to blur the good guy/bad guy line. This month we're seeing Hollywood's big budget take on that idea in the form of a set of heroes that includes a pirate, an ogre, and a normally nice guy who starts wearing black and acting like an asshole. Ultimately, i think movies like American Beauty and Unforgiven do a much better job of provoking thought on the subject. Another one to look out for is Day Night Day Night, which opens in limited release on Friday. Also on Friday the new FilmCouch comes out, where we feature an interview with the director, Julia Loktev. I think the film is amazing, and it sheds new light on this whole discussion. If it opens in your town, go see it. Or a least be sure to check out the trailer. If you can't get it to work on Spout, click here.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Risselada — Wed, 09 May 2007 15:58:51 GMT

Very well put Matt. It's all about context sometimes too. There are "bad guys" in some movies that have almost the exact same characteristics as "good guys" in other movies. And those same characteristics can be used to insinuate that they are "bad" or "good" in different contexts. And sometimes they are just "guys".

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

mattypro — Tue, 08 May 2007 22:28:10 GMT

Hmmm...

I guess I will put it like this:

Lester Burnahm has a mid-life crisis. He is mired in a deep depression and finds that along the way, he has floated far from the familiar dock of family life. This is a terrifying realization for him, but freeing at the same time. But, instead of trying to make things "better," he decides to stick it out in the mud. And sure, this is very gratifying for a while. It can be "rewarding" to be extremely self-indulgent, to stop caring about those around you. But it is also very selfish. Perhaps there are moral limits to this that need to be observed. And I definitely think that Kevin Spacey's character crosses those limits.

Now, I dont want to get into an argument about recreational drug usage or whether its ok to splurge on a sweet red Camaro and attempt to re-live the "glory days." But I think there is a certain evil that resides in the heart of a middle aged man that makes a conscious decision to seduce and sleep with a 15 year old girl. There are some major moral pitfalls evident in a human's life when that person encourages recreational drug use with a young and obviously troubled boy.

Sure...SURE! I find it hard not to root for him. I find it VERY difficult not to say, TO HELL with all those moral convictions and the code of conduct that you "should" be living by as a parent of a young and troubled daughter. And I HATE the way his wife attempts to emasculate him and how obsessive she is about winning winning winning. BUT, those things do NOT make it any less true that Lester Burnahm is becoming a dead beat dad; a druggie, and a child molester. These things are bad. And by doing them...he becomes the "bad guy."

Now, here is the problem...the same problem presented for me by Darth Vader. And really, that is what I think this whole "bad guy" discussion is all about for me. I think there are really great bad guys that are obviously Bad People. The ones that make you just BURN with anger and really get into your mind with thier wickedness like the above mentioned Percy Wetmore. But in the end, these aren't the "bad guys" that really move me. I don't have the itch to torture people or act with wicked abandon and malice. However, I DO see a little of Lester in my own soul. I too can feel the call of young women and drugs and a life of carelessness. So...this begs the question: how much of a bad guy am I? And, maybe more importatnly, what am I going to do about it?

I hope this clarifies my ideas for you. I would love to hear what you think.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Risselada — Tue, 08 May 2007 21:44:40 GMT

Puhnner:
That one is perfect!!! The guy has given me the creeps since I first saw him on an X Files episode as the 'elongating man..or whoever he was supposed to be. This fellow, in this role, dare I say so, is a coward of the first order, and I am not sure if I am prepared to call all villains cowards...maybe another topic altogether. 'Villains, are they cowards or not???'

Don't forget this coward from that movie's companion piece as well.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Puhnner — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:44:22 GMT

This really put Noah into perspective for me:

Noah Cross: See, Mr. Gitts, most people never have to face the fact that, at the right time and the right place, they're capable of... anything!

this should have been the postscript.

ps: and Mr. Gitts, I am!!! ha!

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Puhnner — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:41:01 GMT

That one is perfect!!! The guy has given me the creeps since I first saw him on an X Files episode as the 'elongating man..or whoever he was supposed to be. This fellow, in this role, dare I say so, is a coward of the first order, and I am not sure if I am prepared to call all villains cowards...maybe another topic altogether. 'Villains, are they cowards or not???'

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Risselada — Tue, 08 May 2007 19:06:18 GMT

Puhnner:

Good, great choice there with Bill. We need to add John Huston's Noah Cross from Chinatown to the group, he has a list of villainy and disgusting attributes which rank him highly on any list I would care to draw up.

Wow great metion! Just seeing him in that picture as his character is giving me the creeps. I've rarely been more frustrated and furious with a character!

I just thought of another one who comes close though. Percy Wetmore from The Green Mile.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Puhnner — Tue, 08 May 2007 17:03:01 GMT

Good, great choice there with Bill. We need to add John Huston's Noah Cross from Chinatown to the group, he has a list of villainy and disgusting attributes which rank him highly on any list I would care to draw up.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

porcupine — Tue, 08 May 2007 15:59:51 GMT

Lester Burnahm is an interesting call, I too would like to hear more.

One that we didn't mention in the episode but I still think is great is Bill from Kill Bill. David Carradine exudes campy villain credibility because of his impressive b-movie filmography, but he also works as a no-joke, A-List baddy in those movies. That twist of humanity at the end is again key, with the way he interacts with their daughter.

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

Puhnner — Tue, 08 May 2007 12:38:01 GMT

mattypro...would you develop the Lester Burnahm...Kevin Spacey as bad guy concept a little further, because I see him in a rather different light. I am interested in your thoughts on him and why he qualifies for the villainy tag ( I am not disagreeing by any means, just terribly interested...).

Re: FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

mattypro — Mon, 07 May 2007 22:20:23 GMT

Kev and Paul,

I really resonated with a lot of what you said in your latest FilmCouch. I really enjoy hearing the two of you and your guests talk.

As you mentioned, Darth Vader is one of the best villians that I have ever seen. And although you guys mentioned him in conjunction with specifically The Empire Strikes Back, I think that one of the things that I liked about him as a villian was the end of the third movie. He is the embodiment of evil in many ways. He wears all black, has a cape and speaks with a deviously low voice and the mechanized parts of his body are distinctively "inhuman." I was thinking about what makes him so scarey...and it isn't that he just kills people, lots of villians do that. No, I think it has a lot to do with how he slowly CHOKES THEM TO DEATH....sheesh. Bad. Ness.

But really, what makes him SUCH a good bad guy....is how human he actually turns out to be. And how he saves his son from death...not just saves him, DIES for him. That is amazing. And really...Christlike. And whether you believe in Christ or not, dieing for another is certainly a noble and loving thing to do. Which is a frightening thing to say...that a bad guy can end up being like the best guy.

You guys also talked about the bad guy that you sorta root for anyway. Tony Soprano, Tony Montana....Micheal "Tony" Corleone. And you mentioned that these are BAD people...but you still root for them...but it is important to recognize that they are BAD. This made me think of an even more subtle bad guy. Lester Burnahm....Kevin Spacey's character from American Beauty. I really think that he should be considered a bad guy. A marvelously like-able bad guy, but a bad guy none the less. And I think that because he is a bad guy...that is why the movie is sooo good.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for now. If you are looking for a soundtrack for this sort of thing, I think that Sufjan Steven's John Wayne Gacy, Jr. is a pretty good song to start with. He sorta makes you love that mass murdering psycopath....cause he is just like you.

FilmCouch 18: Sympathy for the Devil, what makes a good villain?

porcupine — Mon, 07 May 2007 21:07:22 GMT

The concept here is pretty simple. We do a weekly podcast called FilmCouch where we tell you what we think, now it's your turn to chime in. Did we fail to mention a classic, goof up a reference, or just state an opinion that you disagree with? Bring it up here. Or if you just want to shower us with praise, that's ok, too.

So, FilmCouch 18 was about bad guys. What makes them so mean, anyway? If you're behind on your listening, here's a link:

FilmCouch 18 on SpoutBlog

Well, what do you think it takes to make an effective villain?